W&R Log The Netherlands

[Frank Mink]

Hi all,

The past months we spend collecting W&R in The Netherlands and this is our result.

Lelystad, 27oct12
Stichting Vroege Vogels (Early Birds foundation)
N82AM Tiger Moth “PG671-26”
N102JW SV4C T67283
N131EB CASA1.131 478 “E3B.478”
N168G Dh60G
N1079E Aeronca 7DC
N1858 Pietenpol B-4A
N1915K Camel “2”
N1917K Sopwith Camel “B7270” replica
NC724V Fleet 2
PH-DRI Fokker DR1 152/17 Replica
PH-FAI Argus III “FS537”
PH-LUS Luscombe 8A
PH-LVA Fokker D7 F256/Mo160 “256”
PH-NIE “N6256/15” Nieuport 28C1 replica
- Nord1101 175 all silver First flight within half year
- CASA1.131 “560” on panel, frame only, frame number:2175
(N3TS) Bu133 Replica fuselage only, stored on second floor
(NC542W) Luscombe Monocoup 110 Fuselage+Wings, on second floor.
PH-BLE currently in Kievit Belgium.
All, exept the PH-BLE, were seen during a visit to this small but interesting museum. They are open every Wednesday afternoon and on Saturday.
Location: 52°27'8.69"N 5°31'8.38"E


Kraggenburg, 30nov12
93+09 Mi-8T LTG62 “SAR”
7436 MiG-21MF-75 2ELM
Location: 52°40'58.60"N 5°52'24.44"E, is location of entrance to the Park. The Mi-8 is situated close to the entrance. The MiG-21 is situated at the far end of the park behind the golf course.

Amsterdam-Osdorp, 23dec12, Auto bedrijf Rooie Ben
(94+82) Mi-2 a/w
Location: 52°22'19.34"N 4°46'29.65"E

This Saturday we started early and drove to Zwolle.
Zwolle, 09mar13
-
First stop of the day was a Hotel in the city centre, here should An-2 SP-FAX be preserved. It was not found.

Zwolle, 09mar13
Deltion College
D-8268 F-104G n/b, Grey c/s, On Pole at Parking place school
K-4012 NF-5B 314Sqn, Double Dutch c/s
D-EIPB BeA24R cockpit only
PH-CDD Dijkhastar IV
52°31'13.40"N 6° 4'50.97"E, This is the GPS location of the School Entrance with inside the entrance hall the Dijkhastar. To the right of it is the practical school class in which are the other aircraft.

Hasselt, 09mar13
“D-8029” F-104G grey c/s.
Located at the Schagen Infra company entrance. Location: N52.58287 E6.09235

Wijhe, 09mar13
(PHUED) S-91A
Painted in fantasy c/s. Preserved on Pole.
Location: 52°25'25.92"N 6°13'21.86"E

Lemelerveld gliderfield, 09mar13
(PH-671)/ST G-103
Cockpit and parts of tail remain after crash in 1994. The cockpit is being converted into a simulator.
Also one wing of a Sedbergh was noted suspended on the roof of the hangar.
Location: 52°27'53.56"N 6°20'1.29"E

Nijverdal, 09mar13
(T-29) Tiger Moth
Fuselage is being rebuild by members of the Lelystad based Early Birds foundation.

Twente Airport, 09mar13
-
Made a stop here to see if DM-SKG was visible, unfortunately it was not visible.

Sint Isidorushoeve, 09mar13
0565 MiG-21UM n/b
This MiG is preserved at the local Nissan Dealer.
Location: 52°10'36.17"N 6°42'8.58"E

Winterswijk, 09mar13
PH-242 Schleiser Rhönlerche II
Preserved inside a home for elderly “De Pelkwijk”. Location 51°58'0.99"N 6°44'3.12"E.

Zelhem, 09mar13
0404 MiG-21PF (former 9SLP) with Bechyne city Coat of Arms on Lefthand side of the nose.
(0804) L-29 Has Chinese Art writing on Righthand side of nose.
Location: Camping Pluimerskamp N52.00279 E6.36404

Deelen, 09mar13
Museum vliegbasis Deelen
NX537/G Auster AOP3
(MJ874) Spitfire LF9 (416Sqn) RCAF, shotdown 29sep44, frontscetion remains
(LK545)/5G-TStirling IV (299Sqn) RAF, shotdown 2sep44. Hull section.
The Stirling bit was found after 58 years serving as a garden shed.
Opening times: Saturday and Sunday 11:00 – 17:00.
Location: 52° 3'41.43"N 5°53'51.20"E

Gendt, 09mar13
(D-EKPL) Lockheed AL60B2
Preserved outside the Colijn company.
Location: 51°52'44.36"N 5°56'34.67"E.

Duiven, 09mar13
DDR-SQO Z-37A
Preserved on a pole with several car dealers. Location: 51°57'43.42"N 5°59'30.40"E.

Barneveld, 09mar13
7902 MiG-21MF n/b
White band on aft fuselage.
Location: 52° 8'12.47"N 5°36'2.95"O

After this final location we had a lovely diner at the Barnies Kip Corner

The next Saturday we again checked several W&R locations in Holland.
Roelofarendsveen, 16mar13
(XM369) Jet Provost T3 c/n: PACW6326
This JP is painted in grey colours and sits in the back garden of a private location.

Rijsenhout, 16mar13
Museum Stichting Crash 40-45
(229) Fokker DXXI c/n: ML 229
(FK98) Fokker CX Fuselage frame
EP947/3W-S Spitfire mk9 Replica “Nick”
The Fokker DXXI still has its c/n plate attached to a box behind the pilot seat. Also the number 5502 was stamped on the plate. Anybody an idea what that means?
Be aware that the Fokker CX and Spitfire replica are in a seperate building across the street.
Open every Saturday from 11:00 – 16:00. Location: 52°16'6.40"N 4°44'10.69"E

Waddinxveen, 16mar13
FX01 F-104G cockpit only, Dutch c/s
This beautiful restored cockpit section lives in an attic room. Many thanks to the owner for showing us his Starfighter heaven!

Rotterdam, 16mar13
(9903) L-29 all white, in parts
In parts, at“Kunstbende” art workshop. On the wing plates “390803” was noted.
The L-29 is visible from outside, though it is mostly covered in tarpaulin.
Location: 51°54'31.86"N 4°25'49.21"E

Nieuwekerk aan de IJsel, 16mar13
(G-ALYW) DH106 Comet 1 fwd fuselage
Location: N51.98620 E4.63019

And that was it for today.

Four days later another short trip was planned. This time the main goal was Hoogeveen airfield. It houses a collection of beautiful restored vintage aircraft and a company that performs restorations. But first a quick stop was made in Zwolle again to see the An2.

Zwolle 20mar13
(SP-FAX) An-2T
It is partly visible on the second floor from the back of the Hotel Zwolle.
Viewing location: 52°30'46.12"N 6° 5'22.80"E
When here look to the west at the 3 story building with the cafe. On the second floor you can see through the most left window, a section of the An-2.

Hoogeveen, 20mar13
D-ECCI Klemm35 In maintenance, wings detached
D-EERP P149D
D-EFTU FWP149D
D-EHCB L-18C “OL-L45”
D-EHMT Casa1.131E Wings only
G-BUVN Bu131EB “BI-005” c/n: 2092
N29EG L-4H “479709/B-43” Frame number: 11832
N1944S BT-13D
N56330 BT-13A under restoration
N58799 Cornell 2 “FV154/154”
(N68144) BT-13A under restoration
PH-952 ASK21 c/n21529 forward fuselage only
PH-COR Dijkman Dulkes Bravo
PH-RLN/N S91D Instructional aircraft for Deltion College Zwolle
Many thanks for all the assistance of the local aircraft owners for showing us their aircraft.
The PH-952 was put into a glider trailer and I was told it would move to its new owner at Midden Zeeland airfield the following day.
We have seen one tail section of a Vultee painted in primer with “D-EAJG” sprayed on it. This is not a registration, just some fake markings.
D-EATY used to be based here but has been sold to Germany and now lives near Landau.
Auster G-ASIP and L-5B N58799 were not seen by us but are confirmed to be here.
Also a Farman Biplane replica under construction and wings of a replica Fokker CX were noted. Both will go to the MLM museum.
Airfield location: 52°43'57.94"N 6°31'14.93"E

Wijster, 20mar13
“PH-112” FWP149D blue c/s
Data plate gave: “D-EADK”and c/n 023
We arrived just prior to lunch and asked to see the Piaggio. It was no problem and we walked to it. From outside the aircraft is visible. Be aware, it is sometimes used for emergency crew training exercises in other parts of the country.
Location: 52°46'56.59"N 6°30'16.71"E

Breda, 22mar13
Just this one for today, since I was in the vicinity.
- F28-0100 “Stolwerk metaal B.V.”
Supposed to become PT-MRX for TAM but due to the bankruptcy of Fokker it was never completed and later sold to this Scrap dealer. Test registration reserved: PH-EZH c/n:11508.
Location: 51°35'37.59"N 4°45'22.61"E

Wolfheze, 31mar13
Museum Glider Collection Wolfheze,
Today a small museum dedicated to Word War II gliders was visited.
- Horsa fuselage section fwd of mainwing spar
- CG-4A fuselage frame section
- Horsa Cockpit replica, former RAF Shawbury assault glider Association
And many more parts of Horsa and CG-4 gliders varying from wing spars and flight control surfaces to brake pedals and many more nuts and bolts.
This private collection can be visited, for details see:
http://www.wolfheze.nl/_Glider/glidermainuk.htm
Location: 52° 0'23.37"N 5°47'53.38"E

Vught, 02apr13
We visited a private collection of aircraft cockpits. They are being restored to a factory new condition.
(24+89) F-104G cockpit, “8239”on forward bulkhead
“LETS1” F-104G Forward fuselage, c/n 8203
(K-3063) NF-5A Forward fuselage, other part still at Kessel location.

Soesterberg, 07apr13
(J-247) F-16A In shelter for public display
“250/V” BR1150 Outside Hangar 6
Inside hangar 6:
65-825 T-37B
67-275/CR F-4E 32FIS/17AF MiG Kill
H-20 SE3160 SAR Flt c/n 1320
“MT51” CM170
- Wright Flyer replica
E-22 S.11
T-443/43 C-47A 20Sqn ML-KNIL
201 SP-2H 320Sqn, no tail
218 SP-2H 320Sqn, F/F
R-87 L-18C
MZ236 Auster AOP3
283 SH-14D Special mks
L2-38 L-12A
N-305 Hunter T7
M-5 T-33A aft fuselage missing
All above was seen during the final Open Days of the MLM museum storage. At this exact location a new museum will be build.

Kamp Zeist Militaire Luchtvaart Museum, 12apr13
Outside:
Q-283 F-86K 700Sqn
“47(r)” MiG-21PFM
“25385/FU-385” F-86F 32FDS
“41871/FW-871” F-100D 32TFS?
“61032/FC-032” F-102A 32FIS?
“3W-B” Spitfire FSM
D-8245 F-104G 312Sqn, preserved along museum entrance road.

Flight Centre:
K-8 F-84E Fuselage part, and LH wing
(PH-941) LS-4a cockpit

Generaal Snijderhal:
“266” Fokker D7
? Hot Balloon Basket
“429” FK51 Replica
V-3/NF869 DH89B “Gelderland”
“221” Fokker D21 replica 1e Jachtvliegtuig Afdeling
“330” Fokker G1 replica “Duck”Nose art
“H-307” P-51K
M-464 B-25J 18Sqn ML-KNIL
H-1 Spitfire LFIXc
(P-230) F-84F cockpit, all metal

Ir Vreeburghal:
“X24” Do-24T-3 “De ouwe lobbes” & “Mickey Mouse” nose art
6-43 Sea Fury FB51
“131/D” Sea Hawk FGA50
134/V UH-34J
160/V US-2N 320Sqn
225/K (I)UH-1
(B-175) AT-16ND Frame hanging on wall
A-10/PG690 Tiger Moth
“099/K” UT-6
L-11 S-14
O-36 OH-23C 298Sqn
“H-4” Alouette 2 “c/n:1208” both serial and c/n are fake!
A-465 SE3160 Grasshoppers c/s. c/n: 1465
B-37 Bo105CB-4 299Sqn “KFOR”mks
P-226/53-6612 F-84F 314Sqn
K-171/DU-24 F-84G 312Sqn
N-144 Hunter F4 n/b
I-69 Meteor F4 322Sqn
J-215 F-16A 312Sqn
K-4011 NF-5B 316Sqn
D-8022 F-104G 312Sqn
“Q-305” F-86K 700Sqn
I visited the museum for the last time prior to the closure of this location.

VLB Leeuwarden, 18apr13
(804) MiG-21SPS
(56r) Su20
(MK905/3W-P) Spitfire FSM
These were noted from outside when we visited Leeuwarden for the 2013 edition of Frisian Flag.

Baarlo Piet Smedts collection, 20apr13
Outside
98+06 Tornado IDS WTD61
1914 MiG-21M White Band
61+18 Br1150 Tail plane only
2423 MiG-23M
XX974 /FE Jaguar GR3A 41Sqn
23+94 RF-104G JBG34, c/n 8113
641/25+13 Su-22M4
0219 Mi-24D
(XN784) Lightning F2A
F-BHRA Se210-3 Air France
94+50/301 Mi-2S c/n: 563401044
50+98 C-160D LTG61
94+21/910 Mi-8T LTG62 “SAR”
40+23 Alpha Jet TGRP31 c/n 0023
PH-FCX F27-100
64-745 F-4C
61+11 Br1150 MFG3 spec mks
98+16 Su22UM-3K fresh paint job
FU-10 F-84F
25+41 Su22M-4 JG....
99+05 G91R/3 Unit: “Condor” (refers to Target tow service)
The 23+94 was still present but has been sold to the USA and will leave soon if not already has left.

Inside shed1:
40+65 Alpha jet
R-2107 Mir3RS FS10
2422 MiG-23ML

Inside shed2:
21+71 F-104G JBG34 c/n: 7040
24+11 MiG-21US
D-1553 SZD-30
D-6201 Schleicher K-7, c/n: 7216

Inside showroom:
KG-101 F-104G “Mach N8001”
26+72 F-104G MFG2 Vikings c/s
16520 T-33A code: HC/314-WN
PH-491 Pilatus B4

Outside on carpark:
XZ357 Jaguar GR3A 41Sqn
“D-8212” F-104G
593 MiG-23MF
The Eindhoven EWAS spotting group organised a visit to the Piet Smedts collection. The owner showed us his aircraft and also granted a visit to his Kessel location.
Location: 51°19'33.31"N 6° 5'8.77"E

Kessel Piet Smedts collection, 20apr13
“23” MiG-23UB JG9 3LVD
- Fokker50 Unfinished fuselage section, ex Venlo
21+60 F-104G c/n: 7029
FX70 F-104G no cockpit
26+30 F-104G
FX58 F-104G
23+01 F-104G no cockpit
24+89 F-104G no cockpit
K-3063 NF-5A no cockpit
40+95 Alpha Jet fuselage
PH-RLH/H S91D fuselage
OK-ADQ Let410A
P-263 F-84F
1809 MiG-21M 1ELM
1909 MiG-21R 32plrt
2007 MiG-21M ....Sqn
2008 MiG-21M ....Sqn
Here we were allowed to have a quick look around of not more then 10 minutes.

Kessel, 20apr13
FX70 F-104G cockpit section
In this village a private collector has this cockpit.

Maasbree, 20apr13
B05/LE BN2A-21
Be accident Hielko spotted this Islander while we were passing it.
Dike Farm Paintball has it on display at their paintball battlefields.
When coming from the south on the N277 it is easily visible from outside.
Location: 51°21'5.67"N 6° 1'3.65"E

IJsselsteyn, 20apr13
OO-LGD CeF150H
Inside the “Dancing Pilot” Disco, this Cessna is hanging above the dance floor.
Location: 51°29'26.96"N, 5°53'43.73"E

Landhorst, 20apr13
- TS11
This unidentified TS11 sits along the N277.
Location: 51°35'54.75"N 5°45'28.01"E

This Saturday was spend in the Zeeland province.
Oosterland, 09may13
“D-8030” F-104G
PH-JWS CeF172H
The Cessna is preserved at the gate of theAd Stouten Scrap Yard, while the F-104 is parked outside next to the entrance road.
Location: 51°39'32.01"N 4° 3'21.03"E

Haamstede airfield, 09may13
(PH-771) Grob G102
This is(minus tail section) hanging upside down in the bar of the local gliding club.
Location: 51°42'25.54"N 3°42'56.20"E

Midden Zeeland airfield, 09may13
N45477 Pa-18-150 Fuselage std
PH-NET Auster AOP5 “TJ347/The Dutchess”
PH-UCS L-4J “54488/B-49”
- Fokker F28 fake cockpit outside hangar
Nice to see the PH-UCS in new livery.
Location: 51°30'49.15"N 3°43'43.21"E


Axel airfield, 09may13
PH-213 Schleicher Grunau Baby IIB
PH-KNF Pa-18-150
Of the batch of ten once delivered to the KNVvL, this is the only one still living in The Netherlands. After a long restoration it is nearly ready for flight again.
We visited this airfield for the Dutch Old timer glider meeting.
Location: 51°15'21.77"N 3°54'5.85"E

Stekene Belgium!, 09may13
PH-MVB Ce172A
When we drove back home we checked this Cessna just across the border.
Location: 51°12'55.65"N 4° 3'19.13"E

Roosendaal, 09may13
PH-AFA Ralley180T c/n:2685
This hangs above the bar of restaurant ”The Swoop”
Location: 51°32'17.06"N 4°25'57.50"E

Seppe airfield, 09may13,
Final W&R location for today
(PH-RED)/R-213 L-21A
Museum hangar:
(15343/11bk) Bf109G-5 JG53
G-AJHS DH82A
(G-ADGV) DH82A
(N2893) Wickson-Bensen B-8M
N9945C Luscombe 8F
N14395 Pa-18-150
(N74650)? N2S-3
OO-122 Renegade AN0292
OO-LEO Tipsy Nipper
(PH-ENJ)/R-170 L-21B 54-2400 GpLV
(PH-JPR) LC360
PH-RLD S91D
PH-VCY L-21B
PH-YAK Yak52
PH-YAX Yak52
(TF-ODI) Hp-137-1 Jetstream F/F outside museum
Location: 51°33'15.69"N 4°32'49.85"E

And finally
Amsterdam Schiphol Airport oct12 to may13:
“PH-NIV” F27-500 preserved Fokker Logistics Park
Location: 52°17'19.01"N 4°47'3.83"E
PH-OFE F100 KLM Cityhopper, preserved Viewing Terrace
Location: 52°18'30.08"N 4°45'55.84"E

Many thanks to all those who have helped us with the preparations.
Also a big Thank You to all those who were willing to show us their aircraft!

I hope this helps for all of you who wish to see W&R in The Netherlands.
Updates, feedback and questions are welcome.

Greetz,
Patrick Dirksen
Hielko Overeem
Frank Mink

Tristar Aviation

[frank kramer]

Awesome job guys!

Concerning the Islander B-05: Piet Smedts told me that parts of it had moved to England to aid in the restoration of another Islander over there. Apparently, this was not (completely) correct (assuming that the one in Maasbree kept all its original parts...); at the PS location in Kessel, a container was noted which was filled with Belgian Islander parts, including a damaged vertical tail with the Belgian flag visible. I did not have the time to investigate further, but as B-05 was stored here before I thought that might have been a logical candidate. As you have shown, it wasn't! Thanks for clearing that up; now I know where to find B-05 I will look her up some time

[Rene Klok]

Nice overview Frank. However I noticed one ommission: in Burgh Haamstede you can find the former KLu Harvard B-193 on a pole in front of the entrance of a camping. Location is at 51°40'46.22N, 3°42'58.02E

[RichardsWork]

Very exclusive report
Some places are new to me.

I may have overlooked in your list the helicopter on the roof of the Free record shop office in Capelle aan den IJssel
Alouette or Hiller type

Some other locations seems te be missing : Overloon ,Best ,Valkenburg a mig-15 in Noord-Holland, just to name a few or I overlooked these?

Rich

[Cloudhopper]

I may have overlooked in your list the helicopter on the roof of the Free record shop office in Capelle aan den IJssel
Alouette or Hiller type

Rich

This is not a real helicopter, just a piece of art...

Johan

[Cloudhopper]

Axel airfield, 09may13
PH-213 Schleicher Grunau Baby IIB
PH-KNF Pa-18-150
Of the batch of ten once delivered to the KNVvL, this is the only one still living in The Netherlands. After a long restoration it is nearly ready for flight again.
We visited this airfield for the Dutch Old timer glider meeting.
Location: 51°15'21.77"N 3°54'5.85"E

Greetz,
Patrick Dirksen
Hielko Overeem
Frank Mink

Tristar Aviation

Very usefull to see this updated list! Thanks guys!

Just for your information, there are some more KNVvL Super Cubs in the Netherlands. PH-KNE is still flying as a glider-tug at Teuge airfield. Bogaerds at Lelystad has some PA.18's as well, PH-KNF, PH-KNL and the frame of PH-KNS.

At Leeuwarden some more aircraft (Meteor and Hunter) can be seen on poles near the gate at the Mr.P.J.Troelstraweg.

Johan

[BaasG]

You do know the F-16A J-213 at the KMA at Breda? Visible from the Cingelstraat.

[frank kramer]

Concerning the Islander B-05 at Maasbree: a picture of it can be found at:

http://www.dfpaintball.nl/fotos/

showing that indeed, some parts are missing... but not nearly enough to fill a sea container! So, it must have been parts (bits and pieces, more correctly) of other Islanders I saw at Kessel... I made a snapshot of the container and will post it later today.

Well.. a few days later, but here goes:

[patrick dirksen]

Thanks for all the comments guys! And Frank thanks for typing it all....
However, this is obviously not a complete overview of all Dutch W&R, it is a list of all locations we visited the last few months because we needed one or more aircraft there.
The remark about the "batch of ten" at Axel is meant about the Grunau Baby, not the Piper Super Cub. Indeed that's written in a bit confusing way

One small addition: the private collector at Vught also has the cockpit of Belgian F-84 FU181.

[VinFlyer]

Some additions for the Militaire Luchtvaart Museum:

Soesterberg, Museumkwartier Hangaar 7:

TP-19 Republic RF-84F 'Thunderflash'
G-10 Beechcraft T-7 'Navigator'
N-122 Hawker 'Hunter' F.Mk.4
7E-5 Gloster 'Meteor' F.Mk.8
I-19 Gloster 'Meteor' T.Mk.7
S-6 De Havilland DHC-2 Canada 'Beaver'
"77-132/CR" (ex 74-0083) McDonnel Douglas F-15A "Eagle"
16-212 Consolidated PBY-5A 'Catalina'
KL110 Doelsleepvliegtuig Northrop KD2R-5
B-3107 (Replica) Brewster 'Buffalo' B-339C

Additional Soesterberg, Museumkwartier Hangaar 6:
M-50 s/n 51-4384 Lockheed T-33A (in container)
D-5803 Lockheed TF-104G 'Starfighter' (in container)
J-265 General Dynamics F-16B "dual" (in container)
Tail F-16A J-230 "Diane" 50 jaar 323 squadron

ROC Hoofddorp
C-10 Fokker F-27 300M 'Troopship'

[Wijgert IJlst]

During 2011 the news came out that the Militaire Luchtvaart Museum (MLM) in Soesterberg had acquired a former RCAF Canadian CT-114 Tutor. Since then I have never heard anything about this, nor have I seen logs/sightings of this bird or a reported serial of the supposed aircraft.
Can any one shine a light on this subject? Is it already present in one of the hangars of Soesterberg, is it still expected to arrive, or has this plan been cancelled in the meanwhile?

[VinFlyer]

No Tutor for MLM, has been cancelled.

[Wijgert IJlst]

Thx, can imagine...

[jimmy van drunen]

Hi all,

The past months we spend collecting W&R in The Netherlands and this is our result.




This Saturday was spend in the Zeeland province.
Oosterland, 09may13
“D-8030” F-104G
PH-JWS CeF172H
The Cessna is preserved at the gate of theAd Stouten Scrap Yard, while the F-104 is parked outside next to the entrance road.
Location: 51°39'32.01"N 4° 3'21.03"E

Tristar Aviation

Yesterday I came across Oosterland. And I saw some new additions, a Silver colored Bolkow Bo.105 (B-71 Ex. RNLAF, Tailboom Ex. B-75). And a (I guess) a black Cessna 337. Could be the N4AQ from Midden-Zeeland!

Jimmy

[frank kramer]

I realize it's a bit late to react to a post on the inventory of PS Aero from 2013, but still, a correction is a correction. Glider D-1553 has been noted here (and reported in this post and elsewhere) as being a SZD-30. That MIGHT just be the current "owner" of the registration, but most certainly is NOT the glider present in Baarlo. That is a Scheibe Bergfalke. Minor detail, especially for military W&R followers, I know, but still..