2030: Luftwaffe Tornado jets may be replaced by F-35s.

[Stratofreighter]

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germa ... SKBN1D81WR

November 8, 2017 / 3:04 PM / a day ago

The German military needs a “fifth-generation” replacement
for its Tornado fighter jets that is hard to detect on enemy radars
and can strike targets from a great distance,
the chief of staff of the air force said on Wednesday.

Lieutenant General Karl Muellner’s comments are his clearest public statements to date
on the Tornado replacement program.

They indicate a preference for Lockheed Martin Corp’s F-35 fighter jet,
the only Western aircraft that meets those requirements.


The air force last month issued a formal request for information about the F-35,
as well as three other jets:
the F-15 and F/A-18E/F, both built by Boeing Co, and the European Eurofighter Typhoon.

Germany is kicking off the process of replacing its 85 Tornado jets, which will go out of service around 2030.

Muellner told
Germany would need to buy an off-the-shelf replacement that could enter service around 2025 to facilitate a smooth transition with the Tornado,
noting that did not leave enough time to develop a unique solution.

But he said changing warfare requirements and the need for a credible deterrent meant
the successor fighter had to be “low-observable, and able to identify and strike targets from a great distance”.

“It will have to be a fifth-generation jet to meet the full spectrum of our needs,” Muellner said.

Any new fighter jet purchase would have to be approved by parliament in the next two years
and a contract signed by 2020 or 2021 to ensure deliveries by 2025.

Muellner said he also strongly supported
a Franco-German plan to develop a successor for its fleet
of what will be 140 Eurofighter Typhoon jets,
built by Britain’s BAE Systems Plc, Italy’s Leonardo and Airbus.

The project, unveiled in July,
would help preserve critical technology skills in Europe and
allow Europe to develop its own low-observable technology, Muellner said.

Airbus last week said that choosing an interim U.S. fighter
that could eventually become a longer term commitment might interfere with the Franco-German fighter.


Industry sources said a decision to order the F-35 would be negative for Airbus,
which is part of the Eurofighter consortium and is seen as one of the key partners in the Franco-German initiative announced earlier this year.

Muellner said the German air force had also committed to NATO to provide a fleet of 14 electronic warfare aircraft by the middle of the next decade,
which meant it would likely have to buy around 20 such jets.

Possible candidates could be the Boeing EA-18 Growler,
a modified A400M transport plane that could provide stand-off jamming capability,
or a modified Eurofighter, experts said.

No decisions on that program have been made.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germa ... SKBN1D81WR

[Alpha Kilo One]

Oh no.... What a swap. Where to put that large array of bombs on a Fail Fighter? You would only have space for a few!

[Starman]

Whatever happened to the armed version of the EADS Baracuda, or V-3 as it could easily have been called. The cost savings alone would have made it viable. No need to hang nasties off it, just fill the nose with .... recce gear.

[jp 74]

Oh no.... What a swap. Where to put that large array of bombs on a Fail Fighter? You would only have space for a few!

depends on the mission but maybe on the external hardpoints?
Please explain "fail fighter" because all new fighters have there problems (yes even the F16 and F104).
I am not a F35 fan because it is not the best looking but i think this will be the best fighter ever.

[Coati]

Oh no.... What a swap. Where to put that large array of bombs on a Fail Fighter? You would only have space for a few!

depends on the mission but maybe on the external hardpoints?
Please explain "fail fighter" because all new fighters have there problems (yes even the F16 and F104).
I am not a F35 fan because it is not the best looking but i think this will be the best fighter ever.

Bit silly to still want to cry out 'failed fighter' etc, about the best selling and performing fighter available.

Payload Tornado: 19.800 lbs. Payload F-35A 18.000 lbs

So F-35A has a slightly lower payload, but on the other hand, the missions you can perform with the F-35 are way more varied. F-35 is a multirole fighter, the Tornado IDS is solely a ground attack aircraft.
also remember the Tornado technology is very outdated, and some specific weapons turned out to be flawed (JP233).

[Wildpicture]

Bit silly to still want to cry out 'failed fighter' etc, about the best selling and performing fighter available.
Payload Tornado: 19.800 lbs. Payload F-35A 18.000 lbs
So F-35A has a slightly lower payload, but on the other hand, the missions you can perform with the F-35 are way more varied. F-35 is a multirole fighter, the Tornado IDS is solely a ground attack aircraft.
also remember the Tornado technology is very outdated, and some specific weapons turned out to be flawed (JP233).

The F35 is like an over-automated electric, Tesla like 4x4, while jets like a Tornado are more like an old school Landrover Defender. Each have their own positive and negative points.

Personally I think that the F35 will perform great in the early stages of a conflict against a high tech opponent. Later on when it becomes prolonged rough and dirty, other jets might perform as well or better. And for many tasks (Afghanistan type missions, peace time QRA etc) the F35 is just too complicated and expensive.

[Polecat]

Personally I think that the F35 will perform great in the early stages of a conflict against a high tech opponent. Later on when it becomes prolonged rough and dirty, other jets might perform as well or better

agree! ( ...something with ''gulf war'' and ''tornado losses'' .... )
Maybe some old Japanese fighter-jockey would be be willing to perform missions like the British Tornado crews did early in the first Iraqi war, but most pilots would never consider doing that in anything less advanced than an (operational) F-35...

[nilsko]

Personally I think that the F35 will perform great in the early stages of a conflict against a high tech opponent. Later on when it becomes prolonged rough and dirty, other jets might perform as well or better

agree! ( ...something with ''gulf war'' and ''tornado losses'' .... )
Maybe some old Japanese fighter-jockey would be be willing to perform missions like the British Tornado crews did early in the first Iraqi war, but most pilots would never consider doing that in anything less advanced than an (operational) F-35...

Well, hindsight is always 20/20 Up until GW1 the tactics were always low level for the Tornado guys. They adapted quickly once they found out Wild Weasels and Eagles did as advertised and got rid of the SAM and MiG threat. But I digress..

[Alpha Kilo One]

A JSF with full payload is as stealthy as a Tornado with full payload, I guess.....

[SquAdmin]

Oh no.... What a swap. Where to put that large array of bombs on a Fail Fighter? You would only have space for a few!

Although you can never have enough weapons on board, with precision guided weapons you can do with less bombs than thirty years ago. The F-35 should be able to carry 8 SDB's in its bay.

[Coati]

A JSF with full payload is as stealthy as a Tornado with full payload, I guess.....

This is another subject. The point is that you can take almost the same payload with an F-35A as with a Tornado IDS, as answer on your initial point

'Oh no.... What a swap. Where to put that large array of bombs on a Fail Fighter? You would only have space for a few!'

Now you bring something else to the mix: 'but, but! then it is not stealthy!' That is correct, but with a smaller payload it is stealthy, and a Tornado is not. and with or without payload, an F-35 can perform fighter jet/air supremacy tasks stealthy or not, which you cannot do with a Tornado IDS. And many more missions for which you have to use a different type of aircraft if you have Tornados, or more aircraft in a strike package.

A Tornado is based on technology from the 70s, and was build in a time that many types where bought to perform different missions. The IDS as a pure strike/interdiction aircraft (with separate variants for Air Defence, ECR). With the F-35 you can do all missions with one platform, with technology designed in this century.

[Alpha Kilo One]

It is not another subject, it is in the original message.

Muellner told
Germany would need to buy an off-the-shelf replacement that could enter service around 2025 to facilitate a smooth transition with the Tornado,
noting that did not leave enough time to develop a unique solution.

But he said changing warfare requirements and the need for a credible deterrent meant
the successor fighter had to be “low-observable, and able to identify and strike targets from a great distance”.

“It will have to be a fifth-generation jet to meet the full spectrum of our needs,” Muellner said.

Any new fighter jet purchase would have to be approved by parliament in the next two years
and a contract signed by 2020 or 2021 to ensure deliveries by 2025.

They state "low-observable"

[Nilson]

Oh no.... What a swap. Where to put that large array of bombs on a Fail Fighter? You would only have space for a few!

depends on the mission but maybe on the external hardpoints?
Please explain "fail fighter" because all new fighters have there problems (yes even the F16 and F104).
I am not a F35 fan because it is not the best looking but i think this will be the best fighter ever.

Bit silly to still want to cry out 'failed fighter' etc, about the best selling and performing fighter available.

Best selling ok, best performing? It probably will (at least let's hope so) but can that already be said at this stage? Not that much operational right now.

[Alpha Kilo One]

My question: Best performing in what? As a fighter, as a bomber, as Intel-platform?
If you want to stay positive, it is hopefully a good compromise.
Future will tell.
For me, while "we" can only afford 35 pieces, it will never be a winner.
You should never put all eggs in one basket.

[K-9]

And in the meantime; enjoy the tonkas while we can...