Feedback on Military Serials Europe 2007

ehusmann · Post by **ehusmann** » 27 Jun 2007, 21:26

On the Volkel airshow I bought the new Scramble Military Serials Europe 2007. Since my last book was from 1995, I kind of needed a new one....
Let me first say that so far I am happy with the new book. Finally I can find all the planes I see in the book again (well, except for some new ones on Le Bourget, but things change...). Also I like the layout and the pictures are good additions too. But, of course, there are some remarks too, which I will list below, hopefully so you can improve the next edition.

The first and foremost comment is on double listings. What I found a number of times already, is that reserialled aircraft are listed with all their serials. For example take the Belgian Aloutte II G90. It is listed as A90 and G90. Why not only its current registration with the ex regi behind it? Or take the Croatian UTVA-75 006, it is also listed with the previous registrations 001 and 9A-DLD, so three listings, for one plane!
But even more strange do I find the situation with the German (Super) Lynx, there you have the same helicopter, with the same registration, but TWO listings! HUH?
And the inconsequence comes with, for example, Portugal were TB30 11401 is NOT listed with its previous registration 1401 (GOOD, but not in line with the rest of the book).

Another remark, or question, is why you still keep using the German roundle as part of the serial? Show me a picture of a German EC135 where the serial looks like 82+51 and I will admit you are right, but I doubt you can. And besides, the Aloutte II gave the same problem for years...... The German roundle is as much part of the serial as the Italian roundle is part of the code on, say, the Italian Army Hueys. Please, turn back the clock to the time Scramble dismissed the damned plus sign, please.

The last two remarks have to do with what I feel are errors, but I know many people note it like that and I don't really have proof of it. Nevertheless I want to mention it.
1 - Serials of the Austrian S.105. The four digit serials are incorrect. They are never used by the Austrians, not part of the c/n, not previous serials, they are simply inventions of someone. The Austrians only use the letter-number combinations (like YA-01). I am glad you use those, now please remove the 4 digit serials.
2 - Italian MB.339 of Frecce. They are not MB.339PAN, MB.339A/PAN or whatever, they are just MB.339A, just like all the others. The PAN designation was used for the G.91 (which where different from the other G.91's), but the MB.339 are mostly identical to the normal fleet aircraft. Only the smoke installation is installed, but that can be done to any plane. That is also why once in a while new planes are used by Frecce, and those are still MB.339A. And a hint, check the airframes, it actually says MB.339A....

Well, I hope these comments are usefull for you. And since it takes me on average about 12 years to abuse a book, you have some time to correct it all

Erwin

SquAdmin · Post by **SquAdmin** » 27 Jun 2007, 22:31

Hi Erwin,

although I'm not a member of the editorial team or in any other way affilliated with Scramble, I think I can answer some questions.

ehusmann wrote:But even more strange do I find the situation with the German (Super) Lynx, there you have the same helicopter, with the same registration, but TWO listings! HUH?

When the German Lynxes were converted to Super Lynx standard they used completely new airframes. The only reason why they didn't receive new c/n's is probably political ('upgrade' sounds cheaper than 'new').

ehusmann wrote:1 - Serials of the Austrian S.105. The four digit serials are incorrect. They are never used by the Austrians, not part of the c/n, not previous serials, they are simply inventions of someone. The Austrians only use the letter-number combinations (like YA-01). I am glad you use those, now please remove the 4 digit serials.

Hmm, that's a tough one. Two years ago we had a base tour at Linz and our guide told us that the letter-number combinations are codes. They just never bother to recode all the aircraft when they swapped aircraft between flights/squadrons. So, if you put it this way, you can stop mentioning c/n's for Russian aircraft as well (but then it would be useless to list them at all).

I fully agree with you on the plus sign in the German serials. Although I must say that it gives me an old school feeling

Arnold ten Pas · Post by **Arnold ten Pas** » 28 Jun 2007, 10:08

Hi,

Concerning the German serials: I'm pretty sure Stefan will respond to this. As a starter you might read his article in Scramble 300

1 - Serials of the Austrian S.105. The four digit serials are incorrect. They are never used by the Austrians, not part of the c/n, not previous serials, they are simply inventions of someone. The Austrians only use the letter-number combinations (like YA-01). I am glad you use those, now please remove the 4 digit serials

Inventions? Not really. Actually, the serials can be found on the aircraft, I have checked several myself in the past. The serials can be found at the top of the fuselage, when you look through the carbonlike square (about the size of a postcard).

Key · Post by **Key** » 28 Jun 2007, 12:13

Not specifically mentioned here, because hopefully obvious... but I'd like to mention: we do appreciate in-depth feedback like this!

Erik

Canberra TT.18 · Post by **Canberra TT.18** » 28 Jun 2007, 12:30

Hi,

I do have some comments:
Mostly about publicing some aircraft 2 or 3 times. The thing is some people spot aircraft by construction number (c/n) orther by serial number (s/n). That's why i apperciate it the German and Danish lynx's are mentioned double. Because in fact they are new aircraft with the same serial, in Germany a lot of serials or are they codes

are used double for different aircraft types, so why not for aircraft of the same type with a different c/n.

I have 'read' (looked through it) I few times and I have a few comments:
Polish SW-4 are in W-3 list is a total different helicopter
France full list of Cap 10 but I miss Cap 20/231/232 or are they al out of service? (cap232 are only dilevered recently)
Head of Mil Mi8 should be Mi8 / Mi17 I think sometimes no Mi8 are mentioned but only Mi17.

I had to get used to the book, Is my first after many TAHS and MACH III books. But I do like the way things are publiced 1 list per type per country, gives a good overfew and not to much or to les information.

Keep up the good work

Pieter

Stefan · Post by **Stefan** » 28 Jun 2007, 12:42

Hi guys,

There is actually no right or wrong in presenting serials, aircraft types, construction numbers, etc. We have made some choices and they are always up for discussion.

But even more strange do I find the situation with the German (Super) Lynx, there you have the same helicopter, with the same registration, but TWO listings! HUH?
When the German Lynxes were converted to Super Lynx standard they used completely new airframes. The only reason why they didn't receive new c/n's is probably political ('upgrade' sounds cheaper than 'new').

The rebuild included a totally new airframe with a new c/n. Assuming that the majority of the spotters consider this a ‘new’ aircraft we decided to include them both.

Another remark, or question, is why you still keep using the German roundle as part of the serial? Show me a picture of a German EC135 where the serial looks like 82+51 and I will admit you are right, but I doubt you can. And besides, the Aloutte II gave the same problem for years...... The German roundle is as much part of the serial as the Italian roundle is part of the code on, say, the Italian Army Hueys. Please, turn back the clock to the time Scramble dismissed the damned plus sign, please.

Again; there is no right or wrong. We have chosen to include it. The + is included in official documents by the way:

http://www.scramble.nl/wiki/index.php?t ... esentation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Greetings,
Stefan

ehusmann · Post by **ehusmann** » 28 Jun 2007, 22:35

As Stefan says:

Stefan wrote:There is actually no right or wrong in presenting serials, aircraft types, construction numbers, etc. We have made some choices and they are always up for discussion.

I think that is quite right. It wasn't intended to start a complete, pages long discussion, probably the wrong section anyway. I just hope you can use any of it, maybe.

The first point was actually the most important, as that has more to do with the book. And about the Lynxes, I understand, although it is not in line with the rest of the serial presentation. In most cases of a double serial you use the presentation as this:

Serialbook wrote:001 [1]
001 [2]

While with the German Lynxes it is a double listing of the same serials. And that is what could be a little better as well, consistency throughout the book.

But enough of the negative feedback, working through the book I also found some really nice things:
1 - Single list per page
2 - Inclusion of the construction number
3 - Hardly any errors (except for the ones named in my first post

)
4 - Mixing the different forces per country and getting only one list per type per country
5 - The pictures are a lot better than I am used to in many serialbooks, good addition

So please do continue, I think it is an addition to my bookshelf!

Erwin

P.S. and go find the Dutch word on the first page

Canberra TT.18 · Post by **Canberra TT.18** » 11 Jul 2007, 15:56

Hi,

One small request as the USA aircraft in Europe are mentioned, could also the Singapore A-4's be mentioned in a next issue they are stationed in Europe as well.

The more I use it, the more I like the book.

Pieter

Stefan · Post by **Stefan** » 12 Jul 2007, 08:19

Canberra TT.18 wrote:Hi,

One small request as the USA aircraft in Europe are mentioned, could also the Singapore A-4's be mentioned in a next issue they are stationed in Europe as well.

Hi Pieter,

Oops... yes... they should be included and probable will be in the next issue!

Greetings,
Stefan

Felipe · Post by **Felipe** » 16 Jul 2007, 12:39

Can i buy the european serial book at KeeBee tomorrow??

greetz Jan.

Arnold ten Pas · Post by **Arnold ten Pas** » 16 Jul 2007, 12:53

Hi Jan,

Unfortunately we are not present with our shop.

Felipe · Post by **Felipe** » 16 Jul 2007, 13:22

Too bad!!

Where can i buy it then??

Greetz!

Arnold ten Pas · Post by **Arnold ten Pas** » 16 Jul 2007, 14:25

Hi Jan,

Try http://www.scramble.nl/shop.htm !

Cheers,

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