British Defence Cuts: the official announcements...

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Stratofreighter
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British Defence Cuts: the official announcements...

Post by Stratofreighter »

Less than 24 hrs to go, with a heated "Battle Royal" behind the curtains... :shock: :grrr:

http://in.reuters.com/article/idINIndia-52236320101016
ANALYSIS - Harrier, Tornado in battle royal over UK cuts

Oct 15, 2010

A British Harrier GR7 takes off at Kandahar air base in southern Afghanistan April 26, 2006.

Credit: Reuters/Robert Birsel/Files

By Tim Hepher

PARIS | Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:21am IST

PARIS (Reuters) - A bureaucratic dogfight between supporters of different combat jets as the UK draws up defence cuts could lead to changes in the way aircraft carriers are designed and how British forces operate, defence sources said.

Options being studied by military planners include delaying the deployment of new carriers to convert them to use conventional traps and catapults instead of the unmechanised decks envisaged for Lockheed Martin F-35 jets to be ordered by Britain.

The move, which sources briefed on the matter said is one of several options as the UK prepares defence cutbacks, would involve other changes to Britain's role in the potential $382 billion multinational Joint Strike Fighter project.

Despite U.S. concerns, Britain is already reported to be considering cuts of over 50 percent in its planned order for some 138 Lockheed radar-avoiding F-35B jets for the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force.

The plane, expected in the UK from about 2017, could be built in three models depending on take-off and landing systems.

Britain initially rejected a conventional carrier version designed for the U.S. Navy and chose instead a short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) type designed for the U.S. Marines and fitted with lift fans made by Rolls-Royce.

But the question of how the carriers will be configured -- assuming, as many expect, that plans for two new carriers will be kept -- has been thrown back into the debate as military chiefs fight over the future of two older planes: the Harrier and Tornado.

This is a battle between the Royal Navy, which flies Harriers, and the RAF, whose backbone is the Tornado fighter-bomber, which is gradually being replaced by the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Most defence sources say the Navy has mounted a successful campaign to save two new carriers worth $8 billion, only to face the mounting threat of cuts in Harriers, which will provide its punch on existing platforms until the planned arrival of the F-35B.

While the RAF has pressed for the full early retirement of Harriers, the Royal Navy is pushing for the Tornado to get squeezed out in a defence review due on Tuesday.

"It is a poker game being played out in Downing Street," a person familiar with the discussions said on Friday.

Indications late on Friday were that the Harrier was losing the battle to survive as it stands but there was no final decision or word on timing, two sources briefed on talks said.

The UK defence ministry declined to comment. Currently the Harrier is due to be retired in 2018 and the Tornado in 2025.

"LAUGHING STOCK"

PARIS | Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:21am IST

Cutting the Harrier early could leave a short-term gap that raises the spectre of headlines about buying carriers with few or no planes -- something its backers are quick to point out.

"We would be the only nation with large aircraft carriers with no jets. We would be a strategic laughing stock," Commodore Steve Jermy, former head of the Fleet Air Arm, told Reuters.

Tornado supporters say it has superior targeting and that Harriers lack the full weapons range or reconnaissance required.

Harrier backers say the plane is cheaper and more effective, and they accuse the RAF of clinging to a jet built for the Cold War.

Redesigning carrier decks for conventional operations could throw naval air chiefs a lifeline and allow them to plug gaps -- but only at a cost, experts said.

Critics of the plan call it a last-ditch effort to justify carriers that Britain can ill afford.

Carrier catapults use sportsfield-length pistons under the deck to shoot planes into the air.

The energy, enough to toss a mid-sized car half a mile, allows jets to take off with more fuel or weapons than a jump jet giving more range and flexibility.

But they need to allow for more spare fuel on board as the pilot lands at flying speed rather than on pure engine hover.

Installing "cats and traps" could open up the possibility of inter-operating with France's Rafale multi-role combat aircraft, a long-held French aim. The Rafale is made by Dassault Aviation.

Other options include leasing Boeing F-18s as a stop-gap or reviving blueprints for a "navalised" Typhoon, but the Navy may be told to tighten its belt and put the carriers on minimum service for now as austerity and Afghanistan prevail.
Tornado jets do not operate off aircraft carriers.

Longer term, refitting the decks would mean switching from the STOVL version of the Joint Striker Fighter or F-35B to the conventional carrier version F-35C, likely in reduced numbers.

However, the F-35C may not be available until well into next decade and the dates for the programme have slipped overall.

Any delay or reduction in F-35 orders would be a further setback for the programme, which has already seen costs rocket.

Abandoning the STOVL version would leave the U.S. Marines as the only customer but their continued strong support for the model would limit the impact, said U.S. defence consultant Loren Thompson.

It would however have an impact on the production run at Lockheed, though industry executives say its pricing projections which tie into that are based solely on U.S. purchases.

UK defence analyst Howard Wheeldon said Britain would likely go ahead with barebones carriers and keep the STOVL version.

"I think they will take the F-35B. When they go ahead is something else. I don't think they will order any time soon."

(Additional reporting by Andrea Shalal-Esa and Jim Wolf in Washington, Mohammed Abbas in London; Editing by Ted Kerr)
Last edited by Stratofreighter on 19 Oct 2010, 14:02, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: ...or is the Harrier on the losing side ??

Post by RogierV »

Not yet official, but according to the BBC:

- Axing the Harrier fleet
- Axing Ark Royal
- Reduction in number of Tornado's

- New carriers go ahead (one or both with conventional launch capability)

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11570593
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Re: ...or is the Harrier on the losing side ??

Post by Hurricane »

http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/def ... =&id=36705
(sorry, Dutch only)

States;

- Harrier fleet to be axed
- HMS Ark Royal to put from active duties almost instantly
- RAF retreats entirely from Germany
- One of the two new carriers will be sold straight after completion of construction as cancelling is to expensive

Not entirely sure where this information comes from as they mention British Media.
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Re: British Cuts: TODAY is the day for official announcements...

Post by Stratofreighter »

Subject title edited because this will probably become the "British Cuts-thread"...

Official announcements in the House of Commons this Tuesday the 19th of October at 15.30 hrs CET, see
http://services.parliament.uk/calendar/ ... /week.html for the calendar...

Also keep a close watch at http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/ ... lines.html . The ratio "announcements" versus "chatter" in this thread is a lot better than the one at the Key forum... :twisted:
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Re: British Defence Cuts: the official announcements...

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Prime Minister's statement has now started... :cry:
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Re: British Defence Cuts: the official announcements...

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Nimrod now officially axed/cancelled ! :evil: Kinloss to be closed...
Last edited by Stratofreighter on 19 Oct 2010, 17:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: British Defence Cuts: the official announcements...

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British Army to withdraw from Germany completely, acquisition of new Chinooks...
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Re: British Defence Cuts: the official announcements...

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RAF

to retire all Harriers

Tornado to be sustained...
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Re: British Defence Cuts: the official announcements...

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Assume makes an ASS of U and ME.
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Re: British Defence Cuts: the official announcements...

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JSF to be acquired...

A400M to be acquired

New tanker programme to be retained.
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Re: British Defence Cuts: the official announcements...

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good news: catapult/wire carier ops again in the future :-)
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Re: British Defence Cuts: the official announcements...

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Carriers:

Second carrier to be built, one in "extended readiness"...

catapults fitted for interoperability, carrier version JSF without STOVL...
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Re: British Defence Cuts: the official announcements...

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Twelve additional Chinooks to be acquired...

Pumas still to be refurbished...

Rivet Joint RC-135 "safe"
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/ ... joint.html
Last edited by Stratofreighter on 19 Oct 2010, 17:04, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: British Defence Cuts: the official announcements...

Post by Polecat »

Stratofreighter wrote:Twelve additional Chinooks to be acquired...
instead of 22 planned......
I have never drunk milk, and I never will . . . .
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Re: British Defence Cuts: the official announcements...

Post by Thijs »

Taken from the report. In my opinion the most important conclusions.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg ... l&CRE=sdsr

a maritime helicopter force based around Wildcat and Merlin helicopters, with numbers aligned to the overall size of the future maritime force structure. These will be capable of locating and attacking enemy forces in both antisubmarine and anti-surface warfare;

strategic surveillance and intelligence platforms capable of providing wide-area coverage as part of our broader combat ISTAR capability. These include the E3D Sentry AWACS to provide airborne command, control and surveillance; Rivet Joint signals intelligence aircraft to provide global independent strategic intelligence gathering; and a range of unmanned air systems to complement our strategic ISTAR assets and reduce the risk to our forces of operating over hostile territory;

reduce our planned number of Joint Strike Fighter aircraft. Installing a catapult on the new aircraft carrier will allow us to switch to the more capable carrier variant;

not bring into service the Nimrod MRA4 maritime patrol aircraft programme. We will depend on other maritime assets to contribute to the tasks previously planned for them;

withdraw the three variants of the TriStar transport/tanker aircraft from service from 2013 as we transition to the more capable A330;

reduce the role of the VC-10 transport/tanker aircraft to undertake air-to-air refuelling only, with the target of withdrawing it by 2013 as A330 enters service;

withdraw the C-130J Hercules tactical transport aircraft from service by 2022, a decade earlier than planned, as we transition to the larger and more capable A400M aircraft;

withdraw the Sentinel airborne ground surveillance aircraft once it is no longer required to support operations in Afghanistan.
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