Chinese plan: "HMS Invincible as a school in Zhuhai"...

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Stratofreighter
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Chinese plan: "HMS Invincible as a school in Zhuhai"...

Post by Stratofreighter »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12134071 has the rest of the story...
Chinese businessman bids £5m for UK's HMS Invincible

A UK-based Chinese businessman has bid £5m for the aircraft carrier HMS Invincible, which is being auctioned.

Lam Kin-bong - who owns restaurants in the West Midlands - has said he wants to turn the former warship into an international school in China.

He said if he was not allowed to tow it to China he would instead try to berth the stripped-out carrier in Liverpool.
Monthly updates on FokkerNews.nl....
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Re: Chinese plan: "HMS Invincible as a school in Zhuhai"...

Post by wonju666 »

Some people just fail to comprehend what China is up too. A Chinese lawmaker (so a party official) who happens to have a restaurant in the UK, wanting to buy HMS Invincible for purely commercial purposes: yeah right! These second hand hulks of western and former USSR aircraft carriers just keep on going to the PRC. And most of the time they end up as testbeds for the PLAN or to salvage technology.
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Re: Chinese plan: "HMS Invincible as a school in Zhuhai"...

Post by P.Terlouw »

We are talking about a hull of a ship build in 1977. I realy doubt the Chinese politics are interested in this old technology. Also, since it is up for auction, the UK MoD is offering this hull to everybody which also means there is nothing to gain for any armed forces around the globe.
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Re: Chinese plan: "HMS Invincible as a school in Zhuhai"...

Post by Hans Rolink »

P.Terlouw wrote:We are talking about a hull of a ship build in 1977. I realy doubt the Chinese politics are interested in this old technology. Also, since it is up for auction, the UK MoD is offering this hull to everybody which also means there is nothing to gain for any armed forces around the globe.
I am with Wonju I am afraid. The Chinese want to catch up and what better way than to study such a design in order to generate an understanding of evolution of carriers? Back in 1985, they were even interested in HMAS Melbourne (ex HMS Majestic and more or less a sister of Hr.Ms. Karel Doorman, the carrier).
Be careful with what you give them!

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Re: Chinese plan: "HMS Invincible as a school in Zhuhai"...

Post by Jaap »

wonju666 wrote:Some people just fail to comprehend what China is up too.
...
These second hand hulks of western and former USSR aircraft carriers just keep on going to the PRC. And most of the time they end up as testbeds for the PLAN or to salvage technology.
Ehh please explain (I used some picure from the internet):
The Minsk came to Shenzhen and was converted to an amusement park
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The Kiev came to Tianjin and was converted to an amusement park
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As they couldn't get a carrier overthere in Shanghai an aircraft carrier was build using cement for an amusement park
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Yes, they got the unfinished hull of the Varyag from Russia and are very hard working making it a proper carrier
(picture in the Bosporus on its way to shipyards in Dalian)
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and for that they are doing lots of integration testing with Z8 and J15 (navalised J11+canards) Mock-ups at Wuhan
Image

But that still doesn't support your statement

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Re: Chinese plan: "HMS Invincible as a school in Zhuhai"...

Post by P.Terlouw »

excactly my point as well. Todays Chinese technology is advanced enough to not rely on an empty hull of a old carrier.

Some more pics of the Varyag as it is recently

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Re: Chinese plan: "HMS Invincible as a school in Zhuhai"...

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When one scrolls through a multitude of websites (afcea.org/globalsecurity.org/sinodefence.org etc) there is one recurring theme most of the time: the PRC has a habit of obtaining hulks of foreign aircraft carriers to gain knowledge in how to build them: at afcea-org
In 1996, China negotiated with France to buy the 32,000-ton Clemenceau when it was to be replaced by a new carrier.
. The way in which Invincible might be acquired for these purposes is the same way in which Varyag was bought: at global security-org
Ukraine halted construction on the ex-Varyag in 1992, when it was about 70 percent complete but without many electrical systems, no engines and no weapons. Left exposed to the elements, it quickly began to deteriorate. In 1992 China was reported to have opened discussions with Ukraine to purchase of the Varyag, a 67,500-ton Kuznetsov-class attack aircraft carrier about two-thirds complete and docked at the Black Sea shipyard of Nikolayev. In mid-1992 China's Science Academy sent 15 naval specialists to Ukraine for two months to conduct a feasibility study on the matter. After hearing their report, the Central Military Commission decided to go ahead with the plan and buy a carrier, aircraft and electronic equipment by 1994. These negotiations were ultimately fruitless, after Japan and the United States put pressure on Ukraine to pull out of the deal.

In early 1998 a Macau-based company, Chin Lot Tourist and Amusement Agency bought the Varyag for $20 million dollars, with the announced intent of turning it into a floating amusement park and gambling casino in Macau. The contract with Ukraine stipulated that the buyer could not use the carrier for military purposes, and that any equipment that could be used to build other warships would be removed from the craft. In 1999 a respected Hong Kong periodical reported that British and French companies had made Beijing an offer to equip the Varyag with many of the systems needed to make it operational.

Chong Lot was a subsidary a Hong Kong firm called Chinluck (Holding). Chong Lot was also connected to another Hong Kong company, Goldspot Investments Ltd. All three firms had connections with former People's Liberation Army officials. Directors of Chinluck were reported to have ties to the Chinese Navy, though Chinluck denied any People's Liberation Army involvement in the sale of the Varyag. Three of the five directors of Chinluck Holding, the parent company of Chong Lot, were Chinese nationals from Shandong, which happens to be the home of the Chinese Navy's North sea fleet. Chinluck (Holding) Co. Ltd. did not have any public presence, and Chong Lot carried a non-existent address in Macau
. Kiev and Minsk are carriers of an other class than Varyag which were in my opinion discarded after having been objects of study before being berthed as state run theme parks. Varyag itself is described as a template of study for future construction. Maybe one day it will turn up as another theme park! Furthermore the Chinese seem to be fond of ski jump equipped carriers. I would guess this to be another indirect approach towards diversification in the steps taken to gain sufficient knowledge in order to construct operational carriers by the PRC itself.
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Re: Chinese plan: "HMS Invincible as a school in Zhuhai"...

Post by wonju666 »

One more source which describes China's search for intelligence on the evolution of foreign carrier technology in detail: Chinese Air Power by Yefim Gordon. First attempt was to buy the Argentinian carrier 25 de Mayo. Deal fell through. In 1985 HMAS Melbourne was bought and scrapped after detailed study. Then followed the episode in which there was an unsuccesful attempt to buy Clemenceau. After that there were enquiries whether Bazan shipyard in Spain would be willing to build two different small carrier variants. This deal also fell through. In 1997 Minsk was bought. After careful study it ended up in Shenzhen. A similar fate befell Kiev. In 1998 Varyag was bought as described earlier. Up to 2005 the PRC government formally denied that there were plans to build aircraft carriers at all!
Nowadays Varyag carries the name Shi Lang and it is probably intended as a trainingship when finished to gain experience in how to conduct carrier ops. First though China must persuade Russia to deliver key components for completion. China is at the brink of production of self developed carriers.
A possible acquisition of HMS Invincible now that this opportunity is presenting itself, must be seen in my opinion in this tradition of gathering foreign carrier technology either directly or indirectly.
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Re: Chinese plan: "HMS Invincible as a school in Zhuhai"...

Post by Le Addeur noir »

I would agree with Wonju on this.

The Chinese are trying to reverse engineer any example of foreign technology they can.

No doubt the Chinese will be bidding for the HMS Ark Royal which has just been de-commisioned in due course.
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Re: Chinese plan: "HMS Invincible as a school in Zhuhai"...

Post by Jaap »

I don't think the point is whether naval engineers would turn a blind eye on such a nice example close by.

For me this businessman can still have a real plan on making commercial use of a UK carrier.

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Re: Chinese plan: "HMS Invincible as a school in Zhuhai"...

Post by Hans Rolink »

Jaap wrote:I don't think the point is whether naval engineers would turn a blind eye on such a nice example close by.

For me this businessman can still have a real plan on making commercial use of a UK carrier.

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Jaap, in our neck of the woods a businessman is a businessman. In China, their is no division between business and state. I.e. there is no private enterprise as we know it.

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Re: Chinese plan: "HMS Invincible as a school in Zhuhai"...

Post by P.Terlouw »

In China there is no different way of looking at military technology from abroad as in any other country around the world. Remember the MiG's and Sukhois which found their way to the US via Egypt or the Foxbat which was dismatled into pieces before returned to the USSR after defecting to Japan.

If the UK MoD put it up for auction, it is available for everybody, including more obscure people. And I am sure if that man buy it, in 2 years time there is a school in Zhuhai.

And for private business in China, there is. And in this case I speak from fact since me and my wife have a private business there and I can tell you we have less interferance from the Chinese Government than here in Holland with a Dutch company!
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