REQ: Spanish Navy AV-8B serials - Waddington AS 2001

[Chris Berry]

Hi all

Two Spanish Navy AV-8Bs were present at the 2001 Waddington Air Show.

The two codes were 01-909 and 01-914.

Actual serials were not carried on these machines until a little later. However, can anyone confirm what (serials) they were allocated at this time?

Any help would be really appreciated by many.

Kind regards, C

[Arjan]

I have been told that the codes don't change, so that would make;
VA.1A-21 / 01-909
VA.1B-26 / 01-914

[Chris Berry]

Hi Arjan

Thanks for your reply - much appreciated.

I've done some research over the past couple of days and **if** the information available is correct (and who knows, it may not and I stand to be corrected), I think the situation is as follows: -

01-909 - is VA.1A-20
and
01-914 - is VA.1B-24

I think errors have crept in because some (probably me included at some stage) have assumed that the codes and serials run concurrently - reports suggest this may not be the case and one (01-908) of the codes may be out of sequence (there doesn't appear to be a 01-913).

I believe the following may be a more accurate picture (which incidentally, ties in with both my records since codes/serials were both painted on the aircraft and the Scramble database):

VA.1A-13 / 01-901 - EAV-8B
VA.1A-14 / 01-902 - EAV-8B
VA.1A-15 / 01-903 - EAV-8B
VA.1A-16 / 01-904 - EAV-8B - subsequently converted to EAV-8B+ and re-serialled VA.1B-3_(?)
VA.1A-17 / 01-905 - EAV-8B - subsequently converted to EAV-8B+ and re-serialled VA.1B-3_(?)
VA.1A-18 / 01-906 - EAV-8B - subsequently converted to EAV-8B+ and re-serialled VA.1B-3_(?)
VA.1A-19 / 01-907 - EAV-8B
VA.1A-20 / 01-909 - EAV-8B
VA.1A-21 / 01-910 - EAV-8B - subsequently converted to EAV-8B+ and re-serialled VA.1B-3_(?)
VA.1A-22 / 01-911 - EAV-8B
VA.1A-23 / 01-912 - EAV-8B - subsequently converted to EAV-8B+ and re-serialled VA.1B-3_(?)
VA.1B-24 / 01-914 - EAV-8B+
VA.1B-25 / 01-915 - EAV-8B+
VA.1B-26 / 01-916 - EAV-8B+
VA.1B-27 / 01-917 - EAV-8B+
VA.1B-28 / 01-918 - EAV-8B+
VA.1B-29 / 01-919 - EAV-8B+
VA.1B-30 / 01-920 - EAV-8B+
VA.1B-31 / 01-921 - EAV-8B+
VA.1B-32 / 01-908 - EAV-8B+
VA.1B-33 / 01-922 - TAV-8B
VA.1B-34 (not delivered)
VA.1B-35 / 01-923 - EAV-8B+ (rebuild/conversion from EAV-8B)
VA.1B-36 / 01-924 - EAV-8B+ (rebuild/conversion from EAV-8B)
VA.1B-37 / 01-925 - EAV-8B+ (rebuild/conversion from EAV-8B)
VA.1B-38 / 01-926 - EAV-8B+ (rebuild/conversion from EAV-8B)
VA.1B-39 / 01-927 - EAV-8B+ (rebuild/conversion from EAV-8B)

If anyone knows anything different, I'd be delighted to hear from you.

Kind regards, C

[ehusmann]

I think errors have crept in because some (probably me included at some stage) have assumed that the codes and serials run concurrently - reports suggest this may not be the case and one (01-908) of the codes may be out of sequence (there doesn't appear to be a 01-913).

I think your list is incorrect. First of all, I think you are wrong about the 01-908. I have seen this one in 1992 already on the Valkenburg airshow and at that time there were no upgraded EAV-8B+ yet in the VA1B-3x range yet. At the time it didn't carry a serial yet, but since it existed, it must have been in the normal range. Second, you have a VA1A-13 in your list. I think that one does not exist in fact.

There has been a discussion on the Spanish serials before and it was then (and still is) my theory that all the serials are in sequence as long as you leave out all instances of 13. So 01-913 does not exist (pretty sure about that one) and VA1A-13 does not exist (I have never seen a confirmed sighting of that one. If you then make a rundown of all serials, the codes and serials confirm the confirmed sightings. Is this proof? No, it isn't, it is my theory. But it does seem to hold. So the serials should be:

VA1A-11	01-901
VA1A-12	01-902
VA1A-14	01-903
VA1A-15	01-904
VA1A-16	01-905
VA1A-17	01-906
VA1A-18	01-907
VA1A-19	01-908
VA1A-20	01-909
VA1A-21	01-910
VA1A-22	01-911
VA1A-23	01-912
VA1B-24	01-914
VA1B-25	01-915
VA1B-26	01-916
VA1B-27	01-917
VA1B-28	01-918
VA1B-29	01-919
VA1B-30	01-920
VA1B-31	01-921
VA1B-33	01-922 (from VAE1A-33)
VA1B-35	01-923
VA1B-36	01-924
VA1B-37	01-925
VA1B-38	01-926
VA1B-39	01-927

But, I do agree with the tie ups you gave for the two mentioned Harriers by the way.

Erwin

[Arjan]

Are there any c/n's known of the Spanish Harriers?

[Chris Berry]

Hi Erwin

Many thanks for your note - I said there was a possibility that I may be wrong.

Your theory is quite plausible, however, I've just got a couple of questions.

1/ you suggest 01-901 is VA.1A-11. I thought the AV-8B serials followed on from the AV-8A serials? As the last AV-8A is VA.1-12, the next allocation should be VA.1A-13 (it doesn't look as though the Spanish military generally omit '13' from their serial allocations - why would the AV-8s be different?).

2/ any ideas why serial VA.1A-32 would be missing from the allocation?

3/ after trolling the 'net, there are a number of references to suggest that TAV-8, serialled
VAE.1A-33, was re-serialled VA.1B-33. Confirmation?

Obviously, I can't argue with your thoughts around the Valkenburg example - consequently, I would agree with your thinking on this one.

Can anyone add to the debate???

Kind regards, Chris

[ehusmann]

As said, my list is also my theory, I am not 100% sure of it, so I welcome any other input just as much.
With regard to your questions. I think the AV-8As do not end with the VA1-12. I believe the last to be VA1-10. The two win seaters are serialed VAE1-1 and VAE1-2. I have seen both in 1996 at Rota and have them with these serials in my log. Unfortunately I have no photographic evidence nor can I vividly remember actually seeing the serials myself. So although I might have gotten both serials from other sources, I do believe these to be correct.
If it comes to omitting the number 13. There are two other examples that I know of, the B.47s never had code 01-113 assigned and the H.369's never have the code 01-613 assigned. Other than that it seems there is no general rule to omit 13 from serials. However, like I said, omitting 13 does link all known serials to all known codes and confirming all real evidence I have ever seen. Especially older logs are to be considered difficult as evidence, since not many people ever managed to read actual serials (and I can remember once trying to read the first EAV-8B+ 01-914 in a hangar at Rota and we had to press our face against the plane to be able to even see any code...).
If it comes to the missing serials (32 and 34), I am not sure. Especially since the codes are sequential. Possibly two more EAV-8B were scheduled to be updated, but could not due to a crash or budget problems. But that is 100% speculation from my side.

But I would love to see some pictures of Harriers that would contradict my list. I have searched the internet, but most pictures only show the newest batch which is rather confirmed already.

Erwin

PS I just found a picture of the twin seater actually confirming your mention of the serial VA1B-33: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Spain--- ... bba82adac0

[michel N]

Not totally on topic, but this discussion made me look into my old Harrier logs. I found one strange thing. At the TLP early May 1999 I saw two Harriers, I have logged them as 01-918 and 01-919. However, I found some logs which gave these Harriers VA.3-6 and VA.3-7. Other logs mentioned these as being VA.2-18 and VA.2-19. Which (if one of these logs is) are the correct numbers?

[ehusmann]

Neither. VA2 and VA3 serials have never been used. That I am sure of, even though there is a good amount of discussion about the serials. Your serials are VA1B-28 and VA1B-29.

Erwin

[ehusmann]

Well, after finding some more pictures, I shot a hole in my own theory. Here are three recent pictures:
VA1A-15/01-903
VA1A-19/01-907
VA1A-22/01-911
So the list I gave above is certainly incorrect now. But, it is still a question which serial belongs to the 01-908. As said, that has been seen before the upgraded Harriers were delivered, but it does not fit in the normal sequence....

Erwin

[Chris Berry]

Hi Erwin

Thanks for your new input - much appreciated.

Going back to your message last night, the AV-8s finished at VA.1-12 (which was sold to Thailand and serialled 3109) - consequently, I'd be very surprised if the 'B' variants didn't start at VA.1A-13.

What doesn't help is that 01-901 and 01-902 were w/o in accidents, before the aircraft started carrying their 'allocated' serials.

However, as with anything like this, I stand to be corrected and thus look forward to further input.

Regards, Chris

[ehusmann]

What source do you have on the VA1-11 and VA1-12 if I may ask? Which codes did those carry according to your list?

Erwin

[Chris Berry]

Hi Erwin

Thanks for your message.

VA.1-11 and 12 have been know about for years and published in many books/databases.

'11' was w/o 30/06/86 and as mentioned previously, '12' was sold to Thailand (and thus serialled 3109).

If you want to have a look, log on to the Scramble military 'online' database

http://www.scramble.nl/milbase.htm

Kind regards, Chris

[ehusmann]

Well, with all due respect, the thing that has been known for years is that the Spanish had 10 single seat AV-8A (or S) and 2 twin seaters. Which serials they used is not so clear and I do not just believe what has been in the books for years. As a matter of fact, in trying to find photographic evidence for either theory, I just came across this picture of Airliners.net: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Spain--- ... cb09f7d355
Note that the aircraft is not carrying a visible serial, but even more interesting, it is carrying code 01-804 on the nose.... but code 01-806 on the wing. So which one is this now?
So, simply the fact that two serials have been in logs for years does not proof to me those serials were actually in use.

Erwin

[Chris Berry]

Hi Erwin

I don't disagree with you.

However, I believe the AV-8As were as follows: -

VA.1-1 (ex Bu.159557) - w/o 28/05/80
VA.1-2 (1) (ex Bu.159558) - w/o 11/06/76 (before delivery)
VA.1-2 (2) (ex Bu.159559) - to Thailand as 3103
VA.1-3 (ex Bu.159560) - to Thailand as 3104
VA.1-4 (ex Bu.159561) - to Thailand as 3105
VA.1-5 (ex Bu.159562) - to Thailand as 3106
VAE.1-6 (ex Bu.159563) - TAV-8A(S) - to Thailand as 3101
VAE.1-7 (ex Bu.159564) - TAV-8A(S) - to Thailand as 3102
VA.1-8 (ex Bu.161174) - to Thailand as 3107
VA.1-9 (ex Bu.161175) - w/o 13/05/94
VA.1-10 (ex Bu.161176) - to Thailand as 3108
VA.1-11 (ex Bu.161177) - w/o 30/06/86
VA.1-12 (ex Bu.161178) - to Thailand as 3109

Hope this helps.

Kind regards, Chris