The JSF trap

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ehusmann
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The JSF trap

Post by ehusmann »

Obviously it is a bit of a click-bait title. But not totally.
Back in the day, when the JSF was still on the drawing board, or at least in the wetdreams of the Dutch Air Force, there was a very lengthy discussion on this board whether it should be the next fighter. Main points were generally it is too expensive, not European, not exceptional at some roles, but its stealth features will be a huge advantage and it uses an incredible integrated digital control system.

By now it has been chosen and flies already. In the end a few thousand of them will fly in the European and American skies. And it will probably proof excellent in most combat roles it will be required in. I am not going to say it will fail.

And now, with the Russian invasion of Ukraine, many lessons are being learned. One of them is that the Russian army is even more ==censored== than many could imagine, but still it can do a lot of damage in a conventional, large scale war-of-attrition which this war currently is. Another lesson is that with a true stealth fighter, the Ukrainians probably could do a lot of damage to the Russians. Just look at what they are doing with a very limited number of obsolete Su-25s.

But here is another lesson, in a thread on Twitter by Australian general (ret) Mick Ryan. In a war-of-attrition there will be a need for a large scale industrial capacity to support the war effort. And that's where I think we will have a JSF problem (and perhaps with many more high-tech weapon systems).
https://twitter.com/WarintheFuture/stat ... 3860118528

In a large scale war-of-attrition, the need will be to replenish equipment, ammunition AND manpower at a constant rate. This will proof very difficult with systems like the JSF. It is immensly costly (and therefore, not feasible to churn them out at a high rate), it takes a long time to produce (again, not feasible to curn them out at a high rate) and it takes time to train people to use them. Be it the pilot, mechanic, systems operators, it takes a lot of time to get proficient. It is not like deliver, unwrap, hop in and fly away. And even though these are stealth fighters and will not likely be shot out of the sky as much as WWII fighters were, it is naive to think there will be no losses. And with only a very low number available, just a little attrition will have a big impact.

One of the arguments used back then, was that for the same amount of money, over a 100.000 Cessna 172s could be bought. They don't pack much of a punch, but each armed with a bomb and you can do some damage. Crazy thought? Of course. But the Ukrainians show a much better option, the small and very cheap modified commercial drones, armed with small obsolete granates. These things do quite some damage to the Russians. Easy, cheap and quick to produce and just about any new recruit can use it with less than a day of training.

So, in short, I am not trying to argue that the JSF was the wrong choice. But I am saying that when learning the lessons from Ukraine, maybe simply expanding the fleet of them in the Dutch Air Force (and others), might not be the right idea. Not because the plane is not good, but because it will not scale up when it is needed. Don't throw them away, but invest additional funds that will become available in building an additional capability that only requires cheaper, simpler and less technological advanced options. Capabilities that can stand the test of a war-of-attrition and that can be scaled up quickly when needed. Perhaps a cheap secondary fighter, perhaps drone based, maybe something completely different.

Interested in thoughts, I am sure there are some other opinions out there...
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Alpha Kilo One
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Re: The JSF trap

Post by Alpha Kilo One »

Hallelujah. Amen to that!
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ErwinS
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Re: The JSF trap

Post by ErwinS »

Imo a wrong assumtion that the 'west' will be involved in a war of attrition against the Russians. If it will come that far, western losses will be very minor vs the Russians.

Way beter organized, more 4 and 5 tg gen aircraft etc. Way beter intell and I could go on. The F-35 will perform as advertised, together with all other aircraft.

And most, if not almost all industrial support is stateside, so quite hard for the Russian to hit that...
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Re: The JSF trap

Post by Canberra TT.18 »

With in the USAF already studies into cheaper fighters (or drones) are ongoing.
The war in Ukraine might lead to new visions/tactics.

https://www.airforcemag.com/brown-launc ... gen-minus/
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michel N
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Re: The JSF trap

Post by michel N »

The war in Ukraine shows Russia is not as powerful as everyone thought they were. 117 days in a fight against a much smaller enemy, but with a big motivation (and western support) to fight.
A few F-35’s in Ukraine hands (not gonna happen though), might even tip the balance on the battle field, as they are superior to the Russian fighterjets.
In a direct (aviation wise) confrontation with NATO Russia still relies on Flankers, as the Felon is being produced in limited numbers.
The F-35 would also not be the only asset used in the fight against Russia (which hopefully never happens), but the mighty F-22 will also be used probably. Together, they will gain air superiority.
The battle field on the ground and sea will be a different discussion, as there are better platforms for CAS available.
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Re: The JSF trap

Post by Reaper »

In discussions with colleagues and fellow spotters in the past said similar things, mainly about the extremely high costs operating such a small amount of 35's and it being overqualified for some jobs. And as a small country do we really need the way to expensive, 5th gen. 'jack of all trades, master of nothing' stealth fighter? Or would a bigger 4,5 gen fighter fleet be the smarter choice? Apparantly the generals/decision makers and politicians think we need 'em despite the exorbitantly high operating costs. (like most European countries btw. Curious what will happen when in a few years all 35's will be grounded for safetyreasons after an accident or something... Only a few EF2000's and Rafales left to protect European skies...)
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michel N
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Re: The JSF trap

Post by michel N »

Reaper wrote: 19 Jun 2022, 11:03 Curious what will happen when in a few years all 35's will be grounded for safetyreasons after an accident or something... Only a few EF2000's and Rafales left to protect European skies...)
Same counts with the Rafale or EF2000… what happens in Germany if the Typhoon is grounded? Or in France when the Rafale is grounded? It’s good to have a mix of fighter jet types, to prevent issues like this. But only the bigger countries can afford that.
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ehusmann
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Re: The JSF trap

Post by ehusmann »

ErwinS wrote: 19 Jun 2022, 10:42 Imo a wrong assumtion that the 'west' will be involved in a war of attrition against the Russians. If it will come that far, western losses will be very minor vs the Russians.
10 years ago I thought that as well. Now... I am not so sure anymore. It may be that the Russians are so solidly defeated in Ukraine that they will not be a threat anymore for the coming decades. But then, what about China? Either way, as a country, as a military, you need to have answers for possibly threats and the war in Ukraine shows there is this threat.
ErwinS wrote: 19 Jun 2022, 10:42 Way beter organized, more 4 and 5 tg gen aircraft etc. Way beter intell and I could go on. The F-35 will perform as advertised, together with all other aircraft.
All true. But still, in an all out war, you will have loses. I mean, even in peace time planes fall out of the sky, in wartime it will be more due to higher usage. And besides that, there has never been a weapon in war against which no countermeasures could be found. In time, some adversary will come up with a way to detect the F-35 and take it out. It is inevitable. Doesn't make it useless, but relying on the capabilities as a given is dangerous.
ErwinS wrote: 19 Jun 2022, 10:42 And most, if not almost all industrial support is stateside, so quite hard for the Russian to hit that...
Apart from ICBMs (which certainly can hit those targets as well), it is also partly irrelevant. The point here is that it will be too hard to replenish depleted stocks of F-35s (if it comes to that), no matter where the factories are.
michel N wrote: 19 Jun 2022, 11:08
Reaper wrote: 19 Jun 2022, 11:03 Curious what will happen when in a few years all 35's will be grounded for safetyreasons after an accident or something... Only a few EF2000's and Rafales left to protect European skies...)
Same counts with the Rafale or EF2000… what happens in Germany if the Typhoon is grounded? Or in France when the Rafale is grounded? It’s good to have a mix of fighter jet types, to prevent issues like this. But only the bigger countries can afford that.
I seriously doubt groundings will be much of an issue in wartime.... but that does not negate the point of having a benefit in mixed fleets. Look at the Ukrainians now with their artillery. The old Soviet equipment uses the 152mm shells which they are running out of (little current production capacity), but there is supply of 155mm shells that the new equipment uses.
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