Mirage 13-PL

[polderbaan]

Goedenavond,

ik ben hoofdzakelijk civiel spotter maar als er iets militairs aan mijn lens voorbijkomt, zet ik het toch op de plaat.
Ik heb in 2008 in Hermeskeil een Mirage gefotografeerd met de code 13-PL. Ik blijk in 1991 in het openluchtmuseum Savigny-les-Beaune een Mirage romp te hebben gekiekt met dezelfde code. Kan iemand mij vertellen of dit dezelfde kist of in ieder geval dezelfde romp is en wat het correcte type, serienummer en oorspronkelijke registratie van deze kist is? Ik heb op het net gezocht maar ik kom niet uit de informatie die ik daar vind. Wel dat er aardig met verschillende code´s is gestoeid van museumkisten.
Dank bij voorbaat.

Groeten van Ab Gobets.

[Polleke_NL]

Goedenavond,

ik ben hoofdzakelijk civiel spotter maar als er iets militairs aan mijn lens voorbijkomt, zet ik het toch op de plaat.
Ik heb in 2008 in Hermeskeil een Mirage gefotografeerd met de code 13-PL. Ik blijk in 1991 in het openluchtmuseum Savigny-les-Beaune een Mirage romp te hebben gekiekt met dezelfde code. Kan iemand mij vertellen of dit dezelfde kist of in ieder geval dezelfde romp is en wat het correcte type, serienummer en oorspronkelijke registratie van deze kist is? Ik heb op het net gezocht maar ik kom niet uit de informatie die ik daar vind. Wel dat er aardig met verschillende code´s is gestoeid van museumkisten.
Dank bij voorbaat.

Groeten van Ab Gobets.

de 13-PL op Hermeskeil is eigenlijk de BA-35 in fake markings..., op Savigny les Baune staan zat Mirage's, maar volgens de EMOOS 2011 geen (meer) met code 13-PL, stond er volgens de EMOOS van 2007 toen ook al niet en ik heb hem in de tussen liggende tijd daar ook niet gezien. En volgens de scramble database id de 13-PL uberhaupt niet bekend, dus echt opschieten doet het niet nee...

[Wrecks]

Hallo,

The 13-PL from Savigny and 13-PL from Hermeskeil are the same aircraft.
In both cases it is the real Belgium BA-35 in fake markings.
Savigny has a habit of changing the markings on a/c before putting them on display or selling them.

Regards,

Otger

[Arjan]

I always thought that this aircraft was a hybrid between both a French and a Belgium Mirage?

[Polleke_NL]

I always thought that this aircraft was a hybrid between both a French and a Belgium Mirage?

according to EMOOS 2011:
"(BA-35)/13-PL Mirage 5BA 35 preserved, ex Belgium, French Markings", no remarks of it being a hybrid or it's main fuselage parts being displayed in 2 different locations....., according to recent and old EMOOSes, no 13-PL resided at Savigny les Baunes

--
according to my own pictures, taken in October 2009, only Mirage's at Savigny where 13-QL (stored) 13-SH and 13-PW (both on display) and at Dijon Aeroclub 13-PW...

[Arjan]

Well I remembered an old picture in the best aviation magazine ever (you just happen to use their forum ) This picture showed the Mirage in different colours.
I believed it to be somewhere in 1990 so I got out some magazines and indeed; the picture is shown on pag aug51 of the year 12/ nr 3 issue.

Here the Mirage is laying on it's belly with no tail. The fuselage looks to be an ex- French Airforce Mirage (French roundel is visible on the intake, together with a French c/s on the fuselage) while the cockpit section sports BA-35. The nosecone seems to be very long for a Mirage 5. The same year also the rear fuselage, wings and tail where still noted a Bierset.
The magazine states they expect it to be an AdlA Mirage 3 fitted with the cockpit section of the BA-35.

If you take a look at www.baha.be, their wiki states that;
000089: fuselage sold to Mr.Pont, Savigny-les-Beaune (France). The fuselage was restored with the tail of Armée de l'Air Mirage 5F N°54, a nosecone of a Mirage IIIE and the wing of a Mirage IIIC (last noted as such at Savigny on 000590)

According to the EMOOS the 13-PL was first noted in Hermeskeil in '93 and a current picture shows it indeed to be with a Mirage III cone. So could very well be the same. Question remains.....is the fuselage from the BA35 or a unknown III or could it be from the 54??. The latter is w/o in '88...but the extent of the damage is not known to me.

I believe that the tail of the BA-35 is still on the dump in Savigny.

[Polleke_NL]

Well I remembered an old picture in the best aviation magazine ever (you just happen to use their forum ) This picture showed the Mirage in different colours.
I believed it to be somewhere in 1990 so I got out some magazines and indeed; the picture is shown on pag aug51 of the year 12/ nr 3 issue.

Here the Mirage is laying on it's belly with no tail. The fuselage looks to be an ex- French Airforce Mirage (French roundel is visible on the intake, together with a French c/s on the fuselage) while the cockpit section sports BA-35. The nosecone seems to be very long for a Mirage 5. The same year also the rear fuselage, wings and tail where still noted a Bierset.
The magazine states they expect it to be an AdlA Mirage 3 fitted with the cockpit section of the BA-35.

If you take a look at http://www.baha.be, their wiki states that;
000089: fuselage sold to Mr.Pont, Savigny-les-Beaune (France). The fuselage was restored with the tail of Armée de l'Air Mirage 5F N°54, a nosecone of a Mirage IIIE and the wing of a Mirage IIIC (last noted as such at Savigny on 000590)

According to the EMOOS the 13-PL was first noted in Hermeskeil in '93 and a current picture shows it indeed to be with a Mirage III cone. So could very well be the same. Question remains.....is the fuselage from the BA35 or a unknown III or could it be from the 54??. The latter is w/o in '88...but the extent of the damage is not known to me.

I believe that the tail of the BA-35 is still on the dump in Savigny.

Only loose tail we saw in Savigny in 2009 was that of BR19, but that's the only time I visited Savigny so my "knowledge" depends on EMOOS 2007, EMOOS 2011 and the Aviation Museum and Collections of Mainland Europe 2nd Edition and these 3 books only sport the info as stated earlier, no clue about info pre-2007..

[Arjan]

Okay BR-19 it was, I couldn't find the picture.
And yes I know what the EMOOS states...but this story and picture always lingered in the back of my head.
Maybe Ab can post the picture of the 13-PL he took in 1991. Remember the Baha website mentions the last note date in 1990 for the BA-35 so it could have been repainted in between. But did it still have that strange long nose or allready the III nose?

[polderbaan]

Would be nice to post the picture of 1991 if only I knew how to do this. I searched the whole Scramble site but it only says you can upload pictures if the moderator allows it, but it does not say how to upload a picture to a message.
So I need some instructions.
Cheers,
Ab.

[Thijs]

Would be nice to post the picture of 1991 if only I knew how to do this. I searched the whole Scramble site but it only says you can upload pictures if the moderator allows it, but it does not say how to upload a picture to a message.
So I need some instructions.
Cheers,
Ab.

You have to upload the picture to a photo storage website like photobucket. If you are having trouble with this, send the picture to me and I will upload it.

See here for a more detailed description http://forum.scramble.nl/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=25359

Thijs

[polderbaan]

Would be nice to post the picture of 1991 if only I knew how to do this. I searched the whole Scramble site but it only says you can upload pictures if the moderator allows it, but it does not say how to upload a picture to a message.
So I need some instructions.
Cheers,
Ab.

You have to upload the picture to a photo storage website like photobucket. If you are having trouble with this, send the picture to me and I will upload it.

See here for a more detailed description http://forum.scramble.nl/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=25359

Thijs

I also found it after some more searching. Here is the picture:
The exact date of the photo is 22061991
Hope thte link to the picture works.
Cheers,

Ab.

[Arjan]

Hi Ab,

Thanks for showing the picture. Much appreciated. I made a copy of the picture in the Scramble magazine (hope the editorial team doesn't mind this??) and I'll post it below together with the photo caption (in Dutch though).....below that a picture of it currently in Hermeskeil (09-2010).





As you can see it certainly is the same 13-PL in your picture as the BA-35 in the first picture. But you can also clearly see that the a/c received a new paintjob. Also the long nose (French Mirage 5F nose) is still attached and that is not the one the Belgians carried. In the picture from Hermeskeil it wears a Mirage III nose.
From the picture in the magazine it is clear that the paint from the fuselage doesn't match the paint from the cockpit section.

I am not sure if the fuselage from a Mirage III differs much from a Mirage 5 so it might be the fuselage from a 5.

The Mirage 5F 54 carried the code 13-PL before it crashed. In that case it might be possible that this aircraft is actually the Mirage 5F 54/13-PL, with parts of the BA-35 and maybe the wings of a Mirage III.
Or a Mirage III with parts of the 54/13-PL and BA-35???

[Wrecks]

Hello,

As mentioned before the a/c coded 13-PL at Hermeskeil is the former Belgum BA-35.
It has some bits and pieces from other aircraft, like the nose cone and tail section (from M5F 54).
The fuselage is from BA-35, this is also mentioned on the delivery documents which
came with the aircraft and the Belgium id is also confirmed by Hermeskeil on inspection
when they recieved the aircraft.

Regards,

Otger

[Arjan]

Okay, that clears up a lot!! Thanks a lot Otger

[polderbaan]

Hi, folks,
how a simple question can produce complex answers!
But I think it´s clear now that it is the same airframe, at least regarding the fuselage. By the way, the Hermeskeil photo is almost identical to the one I took.
Everone thanks for the explanations
Cheers,
Ab Gobets.