Su-24 shot down near Syrian/Turkish border

[Coati]

You know, there are international legal rules nowadays....comfortable with what happened.

It is maybe the reason why today, at ATC, some reminders about the procedure to strictly follow in the case of A-A intercept have been provided...

Indeed, rules of engagement between for instance Belgium and NL are something completely different compared to a completely escalating civil war next door, with numerous incursions. Here a good read how things already escalated. After the incursion of a SU-30, the Russians promised it would not happen again. It is very clear the Turkish government is not tolerating an expansion of the war towards its borders, and set its own rules of engagement. These rules are known, so approaching the border from the south is taking a grave risk for the crew involved. Turkey drew a line which has been crossed numerous times. Besides: it is known that Russia is targeting all kinds of fractions, their first initial goal being to avoid the collapse of Assads forces, to stop the offensive towards Latakia and to reconquer Idbil.


http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origina ... trate.html#

[FredL]

So we'll maybe agree on (only) one thing : it had nothing to do with defending one's own life, but just with politics. Without saying officially, Turkey is just backing some local armed groups. That's all...

For the rest, international rules apply also in this case as Russia and Turkey are not at war one against each other. Fortunatelly there is no "Nato" or "Turkish" exception to the legitime defense right conditions.
Previous incidents, being true or invented, do not authorise what happened as it is not up to Turkey to "draw its lines" : each party has to comply to international law otherwise aviation will become a mess.

If one watches today's news, one will notice that both Nato and Turkey are extremely soft which also tells how they feel about it.

[ehusmann]

Just wondering, when do you think it is right for Turkey to shoot down an intruder? After the 10th incident, 100th, more? Or when the incursion is 5km, 50km, 500km? Or do they need to drop a bomb first?
We all know the Russians do not back down unless forced to. If Turkey lets these incursions happen without acting (and only complaining), the Russians will not stop, they will fly into Turkish airspace whenever it pleases them. So in that light, I totally understand the Turkish action. And if you say 'each party has to comply to international law', I'd say, tell that to the Russians. They broke that law first (and often!) by flying into Turkish airspace. Telling them to stop had no result, so this happens.

Erwin

[F17_114PM]

That´s the same thing that the TuAF is making every day over the Aegean. So, it is a little bit hypocritical, to give Turkey the right to defend her airspace, but on the other hand, to say nothing about TuAF excursions over foreign borders ...

[ehusmann]

It isn't. It would be hypocritical if I'd say that I understand Turkey's action, but would not understand if Greece did the same thing. I am not saying anything about it, because it has nothing to do with the situation at hand. Neither am I talking about Chinese incursions in the South China Sea, or Indo-Pakistan actions, or any other confict whatsoever.

But if you want: to me it is understandable if an aggresive incursion with aircraft with live ammunition where a confict is brewing (hot or cold), is met by active air defence. Apply it wherever you want.

Erwin

[FredL]

- Until now there are no independent evidence of any violation of Turkish air space. Turkish side considers it was and Russian side does not, each of them showing a different flight track. NATO advises them to "talk with each other to solve the problem" and USAF spokesman yesterday on CNN aknowledged not being sure of anything as the border is - he said - "vague" in that place.
- Secondly, Turkish gov himself talks about a 17 seconds flight in its air space. 17 seconds... 10 warnings during 17 seconds ??? But you'll tell me that it was before... or after...
- Third no signs of use of violence against Turkish side from the Su-24 and such a plane can not be considered a threat for F-16s unless Turkish pilots can't make a difference between Su-30 and Su-24 while at close distance.
- Fourth : once more (the fourth time in 2 years) the so-called intruder, once shot down by Turkey, crashes on the Syrian side, just as it happened in the 90s when incidents occured with Greek AF.

I am afraid that when it comes about National questions, Turkey, fot political and nationalist reasons, pushes too fast on the trigger.

Bur still the only legal conclusions : read back aviation international conventions (all signed by Turkey by the way) ! The question is not how many warnings have been given or kilometers in Turkish air space someone flew (or didn't fly).
There are written rules to obey before to kill someone with whow you are not at war. Otherwise it is a murder or murder attempt (Turkish didn't kill the pilot themself).
Once again, if each country decides now to "create" his own air and navigation rules, agaisnt the existing and internationaly adopted codes, flying will soon be impossible and more dangerous then in the 50s or 60s.

Maybe the fact I am from a neutral country makes me see things not in a black and white way, but when it comes about human lifes, we should think, check and read air rules informations.

[ehusmann]

- Until now there are no independent evidence of any violation of Turkish air space. Turkish side considers it was and Russian side does not, each of them showing a different flight track. NATO advises them to "talk with each other to solve the problem" and USAF spokesman yesterday on CNN aknowledged not being sure of anything as the border is - he said - "vague" in that place.

This is the only point that I agree with. Of course the Turks say it did enter Turkish airspace, and of course the Russians say it did not. If it didn't, the action was totally out of order.

However, I say again, it wouldn't have been the first time. And I ask you again, how can you defend the many incursions of the Russians? How should Turkey then respond, just let it happen? Just like we should all just let those little green men enter another country without doing anything? The Russians do not back down unless forced to. If the Turks do nothing it will only get worse. Have you seen those cruise missiles fired by the Russians at Syrian targets? What, is that all fine and well crossing other countries and one even crashing in Iran. That's what will happen next if Turkey will just let it be.

And again, you claim the Turks violate international law, but not the Russians? Nobody forces them to enter Turkish air space. International law is all fine, but goes quickly out of the window in time of war. And guess what, there is a war there, remember.

Erwin

[Stratofreighter]

[FredL]

- Until now there are no independent evidence of any violation of Turkish air space. Turkish side considers it was and Russian side does not, each of them showing a different flight track. NATO advises them to "talk with each other to solve the problem" and USAF spokesman yesterday on CNN aknowledged not being sure of anything as the border is - he said - "vague" in that place.

This is the only point that I agree with. Of course the Turks say it did enter Turkish airspace, and of course the Russians say it did not. If it didn't, the action was totally out of order.

However, I say again, it wouldn't have been the first time. And I ask you again, how can you defend the many incursions of the Russians? How should Turkey then respond, just let it happen? Just like we should all just let those little green men enter another country without doing anything? The Russians do not back down unless forced to. If the Turks do nothing it will only get worse. Have you seen those cruise missiles fired by the Russians at Syrian targets? What, is that all fine and well crossing other countries and one even crashing in Iran. That's what will happen next if Turkey will just let it be.

And again, you claim the Turks violate international law, but not the Russians? Nobody forces them to enter Turkish air space. International law is all fine, but goes quickly out of the window in time of war. And guess what, there is a war there, remember.

Erwin

I remember.
We will definitely not agree on the rest. That'a all.
By the way, shouldn't we consider that protecting southern Turkish border should include preventing ISIS trucks smuggling in fuel to finance this precise war and bringing back islamist fighters to reinforce ISIS ? But you are right : Turkey is already very busy chasing approaching aircraft, so difficult to counter ISIS smuggling in the same time.
So yes, I defend Russia, on this very case, as here they are our objective allies, more reliable then many neighbours in the region even though we don't agree on everything. About the rest, Turkey has a right to defend itself, but in a proportional way and when violations are proven - which is not until now. Otherwise why did the Turkish Gov sign those international agreements ? If you sign a contract, you have to respect it.

[ehusmann]

Well, a point we agree on. Turkey indeed should do something about the illegal oil trade. From the beginning I have been wondering why there were no, or hardly any attempts to stop the oil trade. No bombings of oil fields, no disrupting the oil transport, no preventing it from crossing the border. So yes, much more need to be done on that.

If you sign a contract, you have to respect it.

Yes, another point I agree on. I just find it always so weird to see a statement like that together with statements defending Russia. If there is one country that should be told how to respect contracts..... and laws....

Erwin

[hammarö]

Russia bombed today a rescue convoy at Azaz, Syria near Turkey border. The rescue convoy send food pointed to refugees. At least seven dead and ten wounded.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/utrik ... 1832419.ab

[De Verrekieker]

One of the Russian rescue Mi-8 blown up by a TOW missile. one crew dead. The Mi-8MTSh is RF-95601/252(yellow) 562AvB AA.
The area involved the Su-24 tragedy is one of the last smuggler routes between IS and Turkey. President Erdogans son is close frieds with IS. this whole happening stinks.

[hammarö]

Also Novosibirisk Tolmachevo.

Here is some others in the range from 2015. All spotted in Russia.
211 yellow RF-95583 37382 Mi-8AMTSh
212 yellow RF-95585 Mi-8AMTSh/VVS 2015.04.07.
213 yellow RF- 37384 Mi-8AMTSh/VVS 2015.
221 yellow RF- 37386 Mi-8AMTSh/VVS 2014.09.13.
222 yellow RF- 37387 Mi-8AMTSh/VVS 2015.
223 yellow RF-95590 37388 Mi-8AMTSh/VVS 2015.04.07.
224 yellow RF-95591 37389 Mi-8AMTSh
232 yellow RF- 37401 Mi-8AMTSh/VVS 2015.03.03.
233 yellow RF- 37402 Mi-8AMTSh/VVS 2014.10.
242 yellow RF-95597 37405 Mi-8AMTSh/2015.
243 yellow RF-95598 37406 Mi-8AMTSh/VVS 2014.10-2015.04.15.
251 yellow RF-95600 37408 Mi-8AMTSh/VVS 2015.
252 yellow RF-95601 37409 Mi-8AMTSh/VVS 2015.
253 yellow RF- 37410 Mi-8AMTSh/VVS 2015.

[Gerard]

http://haber.dha.com.tr/newpics/news/25 ... 216062.mp4

This is supposed to be a recording of the warnings issued by the Turkish Air Force to the Russian Su-24.
Not very clearly readable, to say the least

[Reforger]

- Until now there are no independent evidence of any violation of Turkish air space. Turkish side considers it was and Russian side does not, each of them showing a different flight track. NATO advises them to "talk with each other to solve the problem" and USAF spokesman yesterday on CNN aknowledged not being sure of anything as the border is - he said - "vague" in that place.

This is the only point that I agree with. Of course the Turks say it did enter Turkish airspace, and of course the Russians say it did not. If it didn't, the action was totally out of order.

However, I say again, it wouldn't have been the first time. And I ask you again, how can you defend the many incursions of the Russians? How should Turkey then respond, just let it happen? Just like we should all just let those little green men enter another country without doing anything? The Russians do not back down unless forced to. If the Turks do nothing it will only get worse. Have you seen those cruise missiles fired by the Russians at Syrian targets? What, is that all fine and well crossing other countries and one even crashing in Iran. That's what will happen next if Turkey will just let it be.

And again, you claim the Turks violate international law, but not the Russians? Nobody forces them to enter Turkish air space. International law is all fine, but goes quickly out of the window in time of war. And guess what, there is a war there, remember.

Erwin

I remember.
We will definitely not agree on the rest. That'a all.
By the way, shouldn't we consider that protecting southern Turkish border should include preventing ISIS trucks smuggling in fuel to finance this precise war and bringing back islamist fighters to reinforce ISIS ? But you are right : Turkey is already very busy chasing approaching aircraft, so difficult to counter ISIS smuggling in the same time.
So yes, I defend Russia, on this very case, as here they are our objective allies, more reliable then many neighbours in the region even though we don't agree on everything. About the rest, Turkey has a right to defend itself, but in a proportional way and when violations are proven - which is not until now. Otherwise why did the Turkish Gov sign those international agreements ? If you sign a contract, you have to respect it.

Well said.