Libya - UN No Fly Zone Operations - views & opinions

[Polecat]

Worldwide, Switzerland is the only country who really democracy.

haha..... and full active /passive voting power for women since only 1991...
For sure that's an example of a perfect country...

[Starman]

Worldwide, Switzerland is the only country who really democracy.

haha..... and full active /passive voting power for women since only 1991...
For sure that's an example of a perfect country...

.....and I'm sure they've regretted it ever since

[Polecat]

And 'we' getting involved; yes, let's have budget cuts on education, health care, culture & art and just about everything else, and then spend 20 million euro over this. Amazing.......

In this respect it is interesting to have seen the BRIC countries didn't vote, but also didn't veto (R/C at least) India is already complaining about the level of military force

I'm sorry to say so, but the term ''BRIC-countries'' becomes quite fashionable overthe last few days. It feels quite hypocrite to portray them as role-models, simply because they didn't vote in favor.
Aren't these BRIC countries perhaps countries where human-rights are violated on a dayly basis? And arent't these countries that should in fact be sanctioned for buying and/or developing large numbers of fighters and nuclear-bombs whilst half their population lives in poverty.... (and thus have no or bad healthcare, education, culture to cut in..)

[nilsko]

The term BRIC is used in the context of economic growth, not in the way of how they deal with human rights issues. I'd say that Brazil in this context goes a long way compared to India and China.

[Propwash]

Aren't these BRIC countries perhaps countries where human-rights are violated on a dayly basis? And arent't these countries that should in fact be sanctioned for buying and/or developing large numbers of fighters and nuclear-bombs whilst half their population lives in poverty.... (and thus have no or bad healthcare, education, culture to cut in..)

Uncle Sam and Co. are doing exactly the same (not respecting human rights) and 6 mio plus U.S. citizens don't have access to healthcare.
How many U.S. citizens lost their homes lately and have to live under bridges or in boxes these days?

It's a Western World one way ticket, dictated by 'almost bankrupt' Uncle Sam.
Why aren't George W., Donald R., Tony B. and Co. not listed by ICC as war criminals?

Read Wikileaks and you know, which 'dirty' Country we are dealing with.

If you visit the U.S. as a tourist, you will be treathed as a 'potential' terrorrist.
Even BRIC countries are much more friendlier

[Flyboy]

I'm sorry to say so, but the term ''BRIC-countries'' becomes quite fashionable overthe last few days. It feels quite hypocrite to portray them as role-models, simply because they didn't vote in favor.

Indeed I did not refer to BRIC as a fashion or role model, I follow them for some years now. They are less involved in human rights, but thats every nation when money comes into the equation. China (and less surprising Russia) are developing states of the art aircraft and other modern weapons, The Chineese economy is booming and is in urgent need of material suplies and energy. They are all over Africa (where the natural resources are) and are there for economic reasons, not human rights. More even, when we (Europe) step out of a country because of their lack of human right, they step in regardless of these human rights. Fact is that these countries have more interset in the combined future of their people than the well being of individuals (having said that, in our countries, only individuals with money are able to enforce their rights).

I feel that BRIC aims on the natural resources of Lybia the moment that the Gadaffy is back in power. That's also the way Gadaffy sees it, by the way. The fact that Lybian oil does not flow to the States may well be of influence for them not to get to deep involved.

So much for role models... Follow the money!!

[Le Addeur noir]

Worldwide, Switzerland is the only country who really democracy.

haha..... and full active /passive voting power for women since only 1991...
For sure that's an example of a perfect country...

...And how much covert support did Switzerland give Hitler and the Nazis from some point in the 1920s right up to the 8th May 1945?.

Plus all the covert banking facilities to virtually every other dictator in the last century?.All protected by harsh secrecy laws.Hardly the actions of an open democracy.

[Nilson]

Let us not even start about their cheesefondue!

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[Polecat]

Uncle Sam and Co. are doing exactly the same (not respecting human rights) and 6 mio plus U.S. citizens don't have access to healthcare.
How many U.S. citizens live under bridges or in boxes these days?

It's a Western World one way ticket, dictated by 'almost bankrupt' Uncle Sam.
Why aren't George W., Donald R., Tony B. and Co. not listed by ICC as war criminals?
Read Wikileaks and you know, which 'dirty' Country we are dealing with.
If you visit the U.S. as a tourist, you will be treathed as a 'potential' terrorrist.
Even BRIC countries are much more friendlier

If you really beleive all you write, how can you live your live in a cruel world like this? Ever considerd moving abroad where everything is better??

I'm not going in the US healthcare discussion, but to say they don't have access is not the whole truth...

I didn't state that any superpower isn't 'dirty'. Comes with the job of being a superpower I guess...

Even if there were 16 miljon poor people in the US, it still would be a minor percentage compared to the 460+ miljon poor people in India alone.. Besides, the US is cutting defence expenditure whilst the BRIC-boys are spending ever more.. (at least BIC, not sure about R)

So if the US is such an impossible country, how come I see so many pictures of airshows, airbases and airports in the US on this forum? You would feel more comfortable be spotting near a friendly Chinese/Indian airbase than near an American one? It was nice knowing you...
I know the americans are paranoid, I've experienced it myself. But even than, I've never been afraid to end up in prison for years without trial.

I think I know what point you're trying to make, and I even agree on some statements. But I really feel you exaggerate things...

[Le Addeur noir]

Uncle Sam and Co. are doing exactly the same (not respecting human rights) and 6 mio plus U.S. citizens don't have access to healthcare.
How many U.S. citizens live under bridges or in boxes these days?

It's a Western World one way ticket, dictated by 'almost bankrupt' Uncle Sam.
Why aren't George W., Donald R., Tony B. and Co. not listed by ICC as war criminals?
Read Wikileaks and you know, which 'dirty' Country we are dealing with.
If you visit the U.S. as a tourist, you will be treathed as a 'potential' terrorrist.
Even BRIC countries are much more friendlier

If you really beleive all you write, how can you live your live in a cruel world like this? Ever considerd moving abroad where everything is better??

I'm not going in the US healthcare discussion, but to say they don't have access is not the whole truth...

I didn't state that any superpower isn't 'dirty'. Comes with the job of being a superpower I guess...

Even if there were 16 miljon poor people in the US, it still would be a minor percentage compared to the 460+ miljon poor people in India alone.. Besides, the US is cutting defence expenditure whilst the BRIC-boys are spending ever more.. (at least BIC, not sure about R)

So if the US is such an impossible country, how come I see so many pictures of airshows, airbases and airports in the US on this forum? You would feel more comfortable be spotting near a friendly Chinese/Indian airbase than near an American one? It was nice knowing you...
I know the americans are paranoid, I've experienced it myself. But even than, I've never been afraid to end up in prison for years without trial.

I think I know what point you're trying to make, and I even agree on some statements. But I really feel you exaggerate things...

A overview of the BRIC countries may be in order here,

B= Brazil.Spotting there is permissable at least at main airports.Plenty of Brazilian enthusiasts posting on the net to back that up.The country is democratic and the President is limited to 2 terms.Areas of poverty exist-as does violent drug-related crime.

R= Russia.This country is increasing defence spending.Russia will not relinquish terrortory seized in the Second World War.Their government does not tolerate critisim,their police are corrupt and journalists meet with "accidents" on a frequent basis.Some spotting is permissable and there are cyrillic websites to back this up.Organised crime linked to figures within the government is prevalent.

I= India.One of the most corrupt countries in the world.the largest importer of conventional weapons.Hundreds of millions of her citizens living in abject poverty(I was in India recently).The country even lacks public sector garbage collection.The press is relatively free and attacks politicians very frequently.Large nuclear weapons programme and a declared nuclear weapon equipped military.Also a spece programme.Spotting generally not tolerated .

C= China.probably the instigator of the next World War.Threatens Taiwan on a daily basis,is trying to seize islands held by Japan off Okinawa and the Spratley Islands.Increases military(I will not use the word "defence" here) spending by double digits every year.Has signed military agreements that will lead to the Chinese military being based in Burma,Bangladesh,Sri Lanka,Pakistan and other countries and terrortories.Seeks to deploy aircraft carriers vast distances from the PRC(People's Republic of China).A one-party state where dissent can well land you in a concentration camp.The internet is censored.Some enthusiasts at airports who post photographs on the net,so a limited torlerace of spotting.Some photos of military activity have also found their way on to the net.

Turning to the US,there are a high proportion of people who have never travelled outside their home states,let alone out of the country.The attitude of US immigration has improved over the last couple of years since Obama has become Prisedent.I travel to the States frequently.

There are many people in so-called 'red' states who treat foreigners as potential terrorists.A high proportion of these people are poorly educated.The southern states stand out,here.

Many other people in the States are far more welcoming to foreign visitors.

9/11 cast a very dark shadow over the USA,which is only being lifted now.The then ruling Party sought to exploit 9/11 to it's fullest extent,as did their favourate foreign poodle,one Tony Blair,who has become very rich as a result.

[Flyboy]

What do I read:
E8 and E4 in the theatre, V-22 on their way to the Mall (SOG?) and mudmovers still operating from long distances indicating a short offensive part.
This promises new developments. However, most likely in support of a diplomatic sollution....

[Arjan]

Couldn't resist to post this cartoon.....allthough unfortunetaly only in Dutch. From www.foksuk.nl

[Glidepath]

Guys, What does the UN resolution say? (anyone?)

No-Fly zone...
(We can understand what that means), preventing a/c flying and or taking off. (e.g. forcing planes down anywhichway required, destructing runways and aprons.)

No Drive zone:
(We can understand what that means), preventing battle field rolling equipement from advancing. Forcing them back to the barracks and taking them out when firing on non-combattants.

But it now seems they destruction is going further. blowing up (ammo) depots is past the above.....Is this still legal within the context of the resolution? (legal, like does anyone care?...Iraq...)

Discussions about arming the rebels is boosting the spiral of violence and there are enough weapons and ammo around. In good hands, and in bad. if so, who will they possibly arm, nobody knows who they really are and who's side they are on (now and tomorrow), and if they do arm 'them', what with? Good heavens, where's the common sense!
Interestingly, NATO forces are in place uphoding an UN-weapons embargo, while some of the acting partners are discussing bringing weapons into the already armed rebellion (or: (-almost-) civil war).
if so, Are some NATO partners then required to hold, stop and if need be, shoot upon their (former) allies when they bring is weapons while the embargo is still effective?

[Coati]

So? What is your point? Read some military history of the past 50 years and open your eyes, I would suggest. How legal is a dictatorship? How legal is urban warfare? Nothing is legal if you look from a certain perspective. Doing nothing is a crime, doing something as well.

[evhest]

It's all about ethics - or lack thereof - instead of legality.