KLu Apaches against Somali pirates?

[Thermal]

Some members of Dutch parliament want to start using KLu Apaches against Somali pirates. They would be operating from the Hr. Ms. Johan de Witt and Hr. Ms. Rotterdam.
Seems a bit far fetched but who knows. Are KLu Apaches actually certified to operate from Dutch Navy vessels anyway? Seems unlikely to me.

(article only in Dutch)

http://www.nu.nl/politiek/2664179/vvd-w ... raten.html

[SquAdmin]

Great, first they're half-wrecked by Afghan dust and now we'll give them a corrosion treatment to finish them off. If this continues we're shopping for new helicopters within two years...

[Pete]

Well the British forces just returned from Lybia with some lessons learned and their pilots raised some serious concerns about pilot ability to survive ditching in water. Their pilots said the Apache would sink like a stone due to the lack of floatation devices and while doing so would trap the pilots in their cockpit because the way to get out is never desinged for submerged egress. As the Apache was never intended nor designed for naval operations, I think people should take more thinks in consideration than just the apaches sheer fire power.
for full story here's a link http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ce-363865/

Regards,

Pete

[pjotrtje]

I think people should take more thinks in consideration than just the apaches sheer fire power.

Yup, that's politics: shout first and get the attention you want, think later. And the annoying stuff is: most people think this is a great idea because they don't know the subtleties of flying heavey, armoured gunships over large stretches of water!

[ehusmann]

I think people should take more thinks in consideration than just the apaches sheer fire power.

I totally agree, but remember, it was a politician who raised this. Probably a politician who once saw a video of USMC Cobras operating from ships and thought "Eureka, Apaches can fly from ships!".

'Nough said.

Erwin

[Pete]

I think people should take more thinks in consideration than just the apaches sheer fire power.

I totally agree, but remember, it was a politician who raised this. Probably a politician who once saw a video of USMC Cobras operating from ships and thought "Eureka, Apaches can fly from ships!".

'Nough said.

Erwin

Indeed but first the politicians sloughter the MOD by severe budget cuts, than raise a stupid idea to fight the pirates with apaches, So this will need a Dutch naval vessel to attend the area of operations ( which is extremely large BTW) and it needs adaptation to the ship i.e. extra and new equipment just to handle the apache on board like moving around or storing it in the ships hangar etc. I thinks it is cheaper and perhaps equally effective to have marines sail along on civil merchant vessels so far this has not been arranged yet.
My unasked few cents: "Take small steps first before you start to run a marathon."
Regards,
Pete

[BaasG]

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AgustaWestland_Apache the British Apache have more powerfull Rolls Royce engines and folding blade mechanism.

Naval trials and temporary deployments at sea have proven the aircraft as an able platform to operate from the decks of ships, a capability so far unique amongst Apache operators.

[Hurricane]

and they haven't even thought about a Lynx with guns ...
(perhaps disturbed by that Libyan rescue?)

As far as currently known only the Cougar is certified for naval operations, next to the SH-14D and NH90 (certification in progress).

[aviodromefriend]

I thinks it is cheaper and perhaps equally effective to have marines sail along on civil merchant vessels so far this has not been arranged yet.

Vessel Protection Detachment
Zondag is een VPD bestaande uit Nederlandse mariniers geëmbarkeerd op het transportschip MPI Discovery van de Nederlandse rederij Vroon. Het VPD gaat het vaartuig tegen piraterij beveiligen van de haven van Singapore, via het Suezkanaal naar Groot-Brittannië.

short tranlation: Last sunday Dutch marines boarded a transportship to protect it against piracy. The ship's routing will be from Singapore via the Suez-canal to the UK.

In the recent past things like this have happened with marines drawn from the crew of the ship that was fighting piracy in the area. Personally I remember this being mentioned at least twice by the MOD in their weekly overviews.

[Pete]

I thinks it is cheaper and perhaps equally effective to have marines sail along on civil merchant vessels so far this has not been arranged yet.

Vessel Protection Detachment
Zondag is een VPD bestaande uit Nederlandse mariniers geëmbarkeerd op het transportschip MPI Discovery van de Nederlandse rederij Vroon. Het VPD gaat het vaartuig tegen piraterij beveiligen van de haven van Singapore, via het Suezkanaal naar Groot-Brittannië.

short tranlation: Last sunday Dutch marines boarded a transportship to protect it against piracy. The ship's routing will be from Singapore via the Suez-canal to the UK.

In the recent past things like this have happened with marines drawn from the crew of the ship that was fighting piracy in the area. Personally I remember this being mentioned at least twice by the MOD in their weekly overviews.

True,
But what i meant by saying it has not been arranged yet, thas it is still forbidden by Dutch law to have armed personnel sailing along on Dutch merchant ships on a more permanent basis. The protection offered so far is by exemption and by far not enough to protect all vessels sailing in that region and under dutch flag.

[Wildpicture]

In contrast to most opinions vented so far, I think it is thinking outside the box. We have this formidable and very expensive weapons platform called Apache. So why not make use of our taxpayers investments? The politician was on the radio today and he mentioned he got the idea from the British tests, which were successful. We could use the speed, sensors and firepower of the Apache very well against these pirates. Unfortunately our pilots are not trained for such operations and a training program would first have to be developed and will require quite a lot of time.

With respect to the risks mentioned. Yes these risks do exist. But then again you do not become a professional soldier if you are not willing to take some form of risk.

[Glidepath]

once submerged, . Would the crew really get out of a lynx cockpit easier
flying this Boeing over open water, for patrolling, pretty pointless.....
salt water corrosion could be an unsuspected side effect I guess.

but,
What is the bloody point of anti-tank helicopter in situ when Rules of Engagement prevent the use of other weapons before -obligated- reassuring what the perceived threat is all about before discharging the smallest of guns with the purpose of taken some one out.

all n all it is. just another liberal bozo-bullocks-idea that has surfaced this week. We can't take this serious.

JUST send the marines!

There has a lot been said about armed men on board Dutch (merchant) vessels. both true and false, as well as slightly misinformed things.
Escalation of force-levels is one thing the companies are afraid of.

They have made a huge error paying money time and again. That is an invitation for more piracy. Bringing the bad- guys over to Europe, (free food, and clothing and a roof over the head, does not really seem to put these hungry golddiggers off.)

JUST send the marines! (bis)
And some cookies.

[Pete]

@ Glidepath:

once submerged, . Would the crew really get out of a lynx cockpit easier

ABSOLUTLY TRUE butI think once submerged it will not make a difference but before it submerges the lynx is equipped with a far more effective floatation device than the apache ( which floatation device?), so if the lynx crew is not willing to wait until the lynx submerges they first can smoke a big sigar wait until the fat lady sings and then embark their liferaft. The apache crew will have to be a fair bit quicker and better skip the much appreciated sigar ( won't light under water anyway )

[Pete]

In contrast to most opinions vented so far, I think it is thinking outside the box. We have this formidable and very expensive weapons platform called Apache. So why not make use of our taxpayers investments? The politician was on the radio today and he mentioned he got the idea from the British tests, which were successful. We could use the speed, sensors and firepower of the Apache very well against these pirates. Unfortunately our pilots are not trained for such operations and a training program would first have to be developed and will require quite a lot of time.

With respect to the risks mentioned. Yes these risks do exist. But then again you do not become a professional soldier if you are not willing to take some form of risk.

The British test may have been succesful, but the apaches were launched from ships to fly to Lybian mainland and then return to the ship again.... That is a little bit different way of putting the apache to use. In the article my link refers to pilots raise concerns about the part of the mission where they had to fly feet wet. If you take note on these concerns than a fulltime naval mission becomes a bit too much.

Apart from that a apache lacks some devices that will help to keep it on deck on a rolling and pitching ship etc. not only the pilots will have to train naval ops the navy personnel will also have to learn the tricks to handle an apache on their ship etc.

[pluggie]

We just capture pirates, then give 'em extra fuel for the way home

We also sent in a Lynx (WWWIIIIIIIIIIIIIIE-sound for miles) with barbapappa elephant stickers, deathhead (joy!) signs, and Atalanta 2008, Walibi Parc 2009 *we been there* stickers and our PR blonde.