Ramstein - infra discussion

[michel N]

I think that without a certain amount of (self)censorship Ramstein could end up like Coleman, with it's green netting on the fence. That would be a shame.
At FF there is already a policy of deleting pics with infra.

[Nilson]

So we do not make a problem of making, but showing!


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[SquAdmin]

At FF there is already a policy of deleting pics with infra.

So for our own sake, I think we should try to implement this policy on the Scramble forum as well (only for the mentioned airbases of course, like Ramstein and Eindhoven).

[Hurricane]

At FF there is already a policy of deleting pics with infra.

So for our own sake, I think we should try to implement this policy on the Scramble forum as well (only for the mentioned airbases of course, like Ramstein and Eindhoven).

Do mind that Scramble MB Admins are no watchmen and if this rule wants to succeed the responsability lies with the MB users (so the need to screen what they want to show) ...

[Thijs]

At FF there is already a policy of deleting pics with infra.

So for our own sake, I think we should try to implement this policy on the Scramble forum as well (only for the mentioned airbases of course, like Ramstein and Eindhoven).

Scramble is not in favor of censorship, we rely on the common sense of our forum users and self regulating power, as this case shows.

This policy will not change in the near future.

Thijs

[Stefan]

Authorities don't like call signs being posted either, they don't like air field guides on the web, they don't like serials being posted and, as a matter of fact, they would rather see us give up our hobby all together...

I am in favour of using common sense while posting, but it works both ways!

Regards,
Stefan
(not posting this as a moderator btw)

[mainsail2011]

please for next time.......don't post picture's on runway!!!! keep them for yourself.

please everybody who are going to visit or did visit Ramstein AFB, don't post any runway picture's.
This asking for trouble with MP or local police for people who visit Ramstein in the future

[Ergo01]

Now that there is a camera placed on the other side of the fence we sould not worry. Security is monitoring us.
The only thing is that we don't look too fancy in winter gear (and in summer gear neither maybe).

[Martijn.]

I do not see how this could even be a discussion? I nornally do not get in to these sort of things but I have just 1 point to make.

According to the german law, it is forbidden to take pictures of military objects, wether they are in the air or not. Though not allowed, everyone just lets us. The only thing they ask from us is not to post pictures of the infratructure on the internet. So then dont! Its not that hard! After all, they are the boss! And even if they weren't then we can still respect and keep in mind their interests. So please do! For the good of all involved parties!

Martijn

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[mainsail2011]

correct and if you post this kind of picture's on the web, others get trouble the next time they visit Ramstein AFB

[Ergo01]

So no pictures even not of aircaft in the air!!?? That's somewhat fundamentalistic.
For prospective visitors don't let yourself be scared!
A day at the fence is already exciting enough : you never know what will come, if and when they are going to change runway direction, whether the location where you park your car is okay with the police.
But usually at the end of the day you have something, and have missed something.
Have fun and don't worry about pictures in magazines, books, internet, by yourself or others.

[leonard van T]

So no pictures even not of aircaft in the air!!?? That's somewhat fundamentalistic.
For prospective visitors don't let yourself be scared!
A day at the fence is already exciting enough : you never know what will come, if and when they are going to change runway direction, whether the location where you park your car is okay with the police.
But usually at the end of the day you have something, and have missed something.
Have fun and don't worry about pictures in magazines, books, internet, by yourself or others.

in oktober we were at the east side and we were asked to move te car, its an "Anleiger Frei" road. they also warned the dogwalkers so its noting against spotters I belive.


Leonard

[Spotter2000]

Here is some information from Germany with regard to spotting. It is in German but I guess most of us can translate.....
In short: taking pictures of military aircraft is allowed. It is forbidden to take (and show) pictures of military infrastructure without permission.

Auszug aus einem Forumsbeitrag 09/2003:

Nach Auskunft unseres Rechtsberaters ist in der Bundesrepublik Deutschland das Fotografieren von Luftfahrzeugen grundsätzlich erlaubt. Indes verbietet § 5 Abs. 2 Schutzbereichsgesetz in den amtlich zum "Schutzbereich" erklärten Gebieten (z.B. Kasernenanlagen, Fliegerhorste und andere militärische Liegenschaften) das Fotografieren ohne Genehmigung und bedroht es mit Geldbussen (§ 27 Abs. 1 Nr. 2 Schutzbereichsgesetz). Das "Sicherheitsgefährdende Abbilden" (§ 109g Strafgesetzbuch) ist darüber hinaus eine mit Freiheitsstrafe bedrohte Straftat.

Auszug aus einem Forumsbeitrag von 03/2007:

Gemaess der rechtlich unverbindlichen Auskunft, die uns von den amerikanischen Luftstreitkraeften in Europa auf Anfrage uebermittelt wurde, wird das von ausserhalb der Einzaeunung erfolgte Fotografieren von Flugzeugen, die von den US-Luftstuetzpunkten starten bzw. dort landen, nicht als problematisch angesehen. Jedoch, das Fotografieren von als militaerisches Sperrgebiet ausgewiesenem Gebiet ist gemaess dem deutschen Schutzbereichsgesetz,
Paragraph 5, eine Ordnungswidrigkeit, die das Eingreifen von Sicherheitsbehoerden und Strafverfolgungsbehoerden nachsichzieht

[Erik_7Xi]

Neither of the German quotes above indicate it is officially allowed to take photos of military aircraft - it is merely the opinion of one legal adviser, which does not make something a law.
Aircraft and any other military object fall under paragraph 109 of the German Criminal Code which prohibits taking photographs that threaten state security. That is of course very debatable - but I think what we should take away from this, is that there is no 100% clear law that makes it perfectly legal to take photographs of aircraft in the air.

Then there is taking photographs and the actual publication of photographs. The law in most countries are completely outdated in the age of the internet - and still consider "publishing" to be associated with regular media, e.g. printing of photographs in newspapers, magazines and books. But everybody these days is a "publishing entity" on the internet - regardless if its through blogs, forums, websites, facebook etc. A lot of people forget that in a lot of countries they are, by law, considered to be "publishing media" and fall under all laws governing the publication of photos that could threaten state security - especially when no prior permission was given by the state in question. It gets even more confusing when a person travels freely in Europe - say a Belgian spotter takes pictures in Germany and then posts them on a website hosted in the Netherlands. Talking about legal spaghetti!


Any American USAF/USAR/USN installation, that is considered to be American territory, adds another interesting dimension to the legal puzzle.

In addition, allow me to quote from the US Code of Laws. In the case of Ramstein or any other US airbase or aircraft, this piece of legislation supersedes any national Dutch, German or British law if the installation and or equipment (in this case aircraft) is American.

Sec. 795. Photographing and sketching defense installations
(a) Whenever, in the interests of national defense, the President defines certain vital military and naval installations or equipment as requiring protection against the general dissemination of information relative thereto, it shall be unlawful to make any photograph, sketch, picture, drawing, map, or graphical representation of such vital military and naval installations or equipment without first obtaining permission of the commanding officer of the military or naval post, camp, or station, or naval vessels, military and naval aircraft, and any separate military or naval command concerned, or higher authority, and promptly submitting the product obtained to such commanding officer or higher authority for censorship or such other action as he may deem necessary.
(b) Whoever violates this section shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both.

All I am trying to say is that over the years, many people have held this belief that our hobby is 100% legal and that they have certain rights. I may have believed this myself too at one stage but after reading more and more about it, I do not believe that it is so clear cut. I think it is safer to assume that while our hobby has been tolerated during the "quiet years" after the Cold War, it is still not 100% clear cut legal in most European countries. And I think it is safest to behave this way, for the benefit of all. Although most military people I've met and worked with really do not see a problem with this hobby, all you need is one "hard ass" and next thing you know .... the fence is suddenly moving back 10 meters and suddenly a 3 meter high earth wall is between you and the taxiway and runway. (Sounds familiar?)

[marcel32us]

Funny guys, the Americans, but IMHO they cannot fine me for doing something while not being on their territory, and therefore not under their jurisdiction.

And before someone asks about shooting someone across a border: Then I may not cross that border, but my action does. They'd still have to get me arrested in the other country, but at least I will have infringed their territory with my action. When making photographs it's not my action that crosses the border, it's their light. I'm just capturing what was thrown at me, that's all.

The quote above is about photographing US military objects, from US soil. So not applicable in Europe. There may ofcourse be a local law that also prohibits taking pictures from US military objects, so still be carefull!

Just my 2 cents,
Marcel